Transcript

Bridget Todd (00:03):

You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are No Girls On The Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. So I live in Washington, D.C., and it's been a rough few weeks. My city is still reeling from a violent attack on the Capitol by white supremacist Trump supporters. Now, we're all hunkering down to prepare for the threat of inauguration violence. I'm still making sense of everything, how we got here, and most importantly, how we move forward. I know I'm not alone. Melissa Ryan is a time digital organizer, turned extremism and disinformation expert. In October, we sat down to discuss the ways that she was seeing disinformation playing out in the lead up to the 2020 election. Now, at the time we didn't know what would happen in the election or the violence that would follow.

Bridget Todd (00:55):

In hindsight, the signs were always there, but after four years, you couldn't really blame anybody who was just tuning Trump out as a coping mechanism. His Twitter feed was an all caps, mishmash of lies, threats, racism, and whatever covidious. Like a lot of us, the 2016 election was a turning point for Melissa. She'd seen violent rhetoric and conspiracy theories online, but in 2016 she remembers the temperature being turned up in a way she had never seen before. This was different. It was as if Trump being elected to the White House, just dialed everything up. So why disinformation? Why is this something that you've dedicated so much of your life to?

Melissa Ryan (01:37):

Oh Lord, I don't know. No, I think it's... The 2016 election really broke me because what I saw online and the weeks leading up... I have a long history as an online organizer and what I was seeing didn't make any sense. Everything that Trump was doing was over amplified, nothing that the left was doing, seemed to be getting any play, and there was just more hate speech and more misogyny than I had ever seen before. I'm a woman on the internet, so I'm just used to a baseline of a certain amount of that. It just seemed to be increasing in frequency and the danger seemed to be increasing. After the election, I decided that I had to make it my job.

Bridget Todd (02:28):

This is a big question, but when you think of the state of disinformation and the conversations that we have online as women, as communities of color, do you feel hopeful or do you feel, "This is a dumpster fire. It will only get worse."?

I worry that progressives still don't quite understand the problem, that they think of disinformation as something that affects their aunt or uncle who watch Fox News

Melissa Ryan (02:45):

That's a good question. I think it varies from day to day. I think there are things that make me hopeful. I hope we're about to win an election and send I think a very big message to the far right about how America at large feels about them. But I do worry. I worry that a lot of progressives still don't quite understand the problem, that they think of disinformation as something that affects their aunt or uncle who watch Fox News and not that's largely targeting women or communities of color, or they think that it's just going to go away if Biden is elected. Both of those are incorrect and make me worry. I'm really worried that if the election goes our way, then it's going to be like, "Oh, we don't have to worry about disinformation anymore. We don't have to worry about hate speech because they're all going to be gone." That's just simply not the case.

Bridget Todd (03:43):

Biden was elected. Once again, it was like the temperature got turned up, only this time it was turned way up. Six days after watching the violent interaction take place at the Capitol, that was largely fueled by the repeated baseless false claim that Trump won the election and it was being stolen from him, Melissa and I spoke again. We're two people whose work has consisted of warning people that something awful was coming, trying to get tech companies to take action to prevent it, and generally wading through the darkest corners of the internet. So if we sound like we're not in a great place, well, we weren't.

So I have to say we are in this intense moment. You've been doing this work for such a long time. Just in general, how the hell are you? It is a wild time to be someone who works in this space. How are you?

Melissa Ryan (04:36):

Yeah. Thank you for asking. I can't say that I'm okay, and I don't think that any of us are okay. It's been such an awful experience watching this unfold and be organized online so very publicly. Then everyday we find out news that says that the attack was much worse I think, even then what we realized. The news just keeps getting worse every day. It's very unsettling to think about how many folks who hold elected office up to the president were inciting violence and how many members of Congress and Hill staff and frankly, support staff maintenance and food service have to go back to work with some of these folks every day, less than a week after an attempted coup. I'm going to be sitting with that for a long time.

Bridget Todd (05:28):

Yeah. I definitely feel you on that. I think that's one of the things that really breaks my heart. Nobody should be going through this full stop, but then when you think about the other staffers and then just everyday folks in D.C. who do not support, who maybe are not being taken care of in this way. I remember seeing an image of the largely black Capitol Hill staffers cleaning up, and I thought, "Did these folks also get the benefit of gas mask or protection? Or were they just out here on their own trying to do their jobs?"

Melissa Ryan (06:04):

I read a harrowing anecdote about how after 911, no one actually came to evacuate the support staff and tell them that it was safe. Just thinking like, "Oh man, I hope that there are better procedures in place now." There was also an anecdote about how members of Congress were told that bulletproof vests were reimbursable expense. I was like, "Well, I wonder if you're a food service worker who's outsourced, I'm guessing it's not a reimbursable expense or even something that can be on your radar." So it's really horrible.

Bridget Todd (06:40):

A day before the violent riot at the Capitol, Melissa tweeted, "We should probably talk more about how Donald Trump wants his supporters to get violent on his behalf tomorrow. He's been encouraging them to come for weeks, and now inciting them. What concerns me is how many people are heading to D.C., hoping for violence. Though they don't seem to be clear with one another, if Trump is supposed to start the insurrection or if they are." Her tweet would prove to be prophetic. Only no one really wants to be able to say, "I told you so," when they're talking about a violent mob attack.

Melissa Ryan (07:15):

Yeah. I love being right generally in my life, but there is no worst time to be right, than it's thinking about a president inciting violence against Americans. It was horrible. I spent my holidays... Trump on December 19th announced this event and he said, "Be there, be wild." He crowd-built forward over Twitter a couple more times.

Who could have seen the violent insurrection at the Capitol coming? Well, pretty much anyone who was looking.

Bridget Todd (07:39):

Who could have seen the event at the Capitol coming? Well, pretty much anyone who was looking. In fact, Trump's own administration found that homegrown white supremacist groups were a growing spread in America. The Department of Homeland Security called the threat from white supremacists, the most deadly domestic terror threat facing the country. Yet, the Trump administration chose to instead prioritize what they called "black identity extremists" or essentially anyone who was black and happened to be connected to Black Lives Matter as the bigger threat. What's hard for Melissa, is the fact that these attacks were so openly planned on social media platforms.

Melissa Ryan (08:16):

Folks in MAGA world were so openly organizing. They were on the Donald, they were on Parler and Facebook groups and the rhetoric just kept getting increasingly violent. They were talking about storming the Capitol. They were talking about how they were going to hang and execute members of Congress and anyone who was in the deep state. It was all just happening out in the open, and it was very disturbing. Partly, it's very disturbing because it's really hard to tell who is fantasizing and who is actually making plans.

Bridget Todd (08:50):

Yeah. I could imagine that. I think from what you just said, if you knew where to look, these things were being organized in plain sight. What is it like then to have so many officials make it seem as though we could never have predicted this? We could have never prepared for this. What is that? I mean, it almost feels like gaslighting where you're thinking, "Oh, I literally just saw this being planned on twitter.com in public or on Parler." Having all these officials lean on this language that makes it seem like no one could have seen this coming. What is that like to see?

whiteness is a hell of a drug

Melissa Ryan (09:25):

Yeah. What I'll say is whiteness is a hell of a drug. I have no doubt in my... I mean, I think about how we know how law enforcement surveils and infiltrates supposedly groups of all political stripes, but we know what happens to folks on the left. We know what's been happening to Black Lives Matter. I can't imagine if something on a Black Lives Matter forum or group or conversation was said that was a quarter of this vitriolic, that there wouldn't be just an incredible police presence in response. That all this was happening for weeks. Again, there's no way folks didn't see it was happening. It's just that they saw what was happening and chose not to take it seriously.

Bridget Todd (10:06):

Folks like you and other organizations and the organization that I represent UltraViolet, we've been calling on tech platforms to take this information and violent rhetoric on social media seriously forever. I mean, you and I have been in some of the same meetings with leadership from companies like Facebook and Twitter, and we just listen to them say over and over again, "Oh, we can't do this. We can't do this. We can't do this," and throw up their hands. It turns out they could do it this whole time.

Melissa Ryan (10:32):

Yeah. All it took was a violent attempted coup. No. I mean, what I go back to is the tech platforms and Facebook is the worst actor, but I think, YouTube and Twitter have to take some heat too. They've always treated this like a PR problem. When we see big changes is after terrible tragic events happen, and then it's like, "No one could've predicted. No one could have prevented." Sheryl Sandberg actually had the audacity to say yesterday that this attack wasn't organized on Facebook, which was just... I don't even know how still after all these years you can say that with a straight face or what PR person would advise you to do that. But again, I think, we know from news, public reporting that Twitter seems to indicate the part of the reason that they took down Trump's account and did another round of take-downs was because of intelligence they received about more violence. So I'm sure that plays into it as well. But after the past four years, it's hard not to be cynical and be like, "Oh, you just see this as another PR problem."

Bridget Todd (11:30):

Yeah. I mean, I completely agree... To go back to Sheryl Sandberg, in that video yesterday she said, "Oh, Facebook moved to take down all the Stop the Steal groups." I happened to have on my other monitor, Facebook app and I was looking at the group. So I was like, "Well, she's telling me that they're down, but here I am-

Melissa Ryan (11:49):

Here they are.

Bridget Todd (11:50):

...with my eyes looking at them."

Melissa Ryan (11:51):

Well, I mean, how much we about being in some of the same meetings, how often have we been there with non-profit organizations who are saying, "This is what we're seeing. This is what it is. Here's the list."? Then Facebook dances around it like, "Oh, they've only had two strikes and our review is different," and it's just abdicating responsibility again and again.

Bridget Todd (12:11):

It's always something. It really is a crisis of leadership. It's passing the buck, it's blaming content moderators or something. There's always something I feel, where they're able to really skirt accountability. I think it's interesting to watch how quickly they're moving now, with how slowly they've been moving in the past and how they've just been parroting this idea that there's not much they can do when it's clear that's not the case.

Melissa Ryan (12:41):

Yeah. You saw that in the early days of COVID too. I mean, I think Facebook took a lot more proactive action than they have in the past because they could see what was coming and they still didn't do enough. But it's like, "Well, we know you can move fast when you need to."

Bridget Todd (12:55):

What was your reaction to Trump being kicked off social media? First Facebook and then Twitter?

Melissa Ryan (12:59):

I was truly stunned when he was finally suspended from Twitter, especially when it was permanent. I remember just that night, just staring at the space where his page used to be. I think I tweeted, "Your moment of Zen." Honestly, selfishly, I was like, "Oh my God, I'm never going to have to wake up and wonder what he tweeted. I'm never going to have to worry if he started a war or fired someone or anything over Twitter." So personally, God, it was like this giant weight had been lifted off.

Bridget Todd (13:32):

I have seen so many people, some of whom are people that I respect or whose... I think are thoughtful people, making this argument of, "Well, if they can do this to Trump because they don't like what he has to say, what's stopping them from doing it to me or to you or to anybody else?" Making Trump being de-platformed about a free speech issue, do you believe that Trump being de-platformed from Facebook and Twitter and social media is a free speech issue?

When we're talking about free speech, we're talking about free speech of a select few, and it completely ignores everyone who has been de-platformed or harassed offline

Melissa Ryan (13:58):

I don't. Because again, he was inciting violence. When we're talking about free speech, we're talking about free speech of a select few, and it completely ignores everyone who has been de-platformed or harassed offline over the number of years by these same folks. I also think Twitter's world leaders' policy in particular is something we haven't talked about enough in this. I think, I've got an obsession with it. For a long time, Twitter, if you were a world leader, they were going to leave your tweet up no matter what it was because it was newsworthy. Basically what that did was it gave world leaders another weapon to abuse. Obviously, every world leader isn't going to abuse it but it was... If you know that your tweet is not going to be taken down, that gives you a lot more leeway to do things like incite violence and make threats.

Bridget Todd (14:49):

Let's take a quick break. We're back. I wish we lived in a world where world leaders could be trusted to not incite violence and make threats. But let's be real. That's not the world Americans have spent the last four years living in. The seductive power of violence and threats combined with the power of unrestricted social media access, proved to be too much for demagogues like Trump to resist. Social media companies need to be held accountable when their platforms are used to spread hatred and incite violence. There need to be standards, and elected officials whose voices are amplified by the power of their office should be held to them too.

Melissa Ryan (15:37):

So I've always maintained that world leaders should actually be held to the same standard that any other user on Twitter is. Partly, because the idea of newsworthiness is silly because world leaders have a million other channels where things that they say are newsworthy, but also because it just gives already powerful people an extra weapon to wield against their political opposition.

Bridget Todd (15:59):

Another question I have for you is, I think that for so long, we had this idea that people who were spreading conspiracy theories and disinformation were fringe groups. What is it... How do we combat it when you have elected officials, some of that who took part in the insurrection? How do we combat this idea that we're dealing with a handful of fringe people, when in fact it's elected officials and it's the official GOP repeating false claims about Antifa being behind the attacks on the Capitol? How can we combat it when it's... In some cases it seems to have gone so mainstream.

Melissa Ryan (16:38):

Yeah. I mean, look, the biggest purveyor of disinformation in the 2020 election was Donald Trump. He used his presidential campaign and the White House and every lever of federal government that he had to spread disinformation. That's not fringe. We've also had an increasing amount of far-right candidates run for office and win. There are currently two members of Congress who are known believers of QAnon, Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Boebert in Colorado. I don't think I said the latter's name correctly, but it's fine. We see an increasing amount. There's Amanda Litman on Twitter has been keeping a list of all the state legislators who showed up at the Capitol and were involved in the insurrection. So these folks have been building political power in the Republican Party for a long time. They hold elected office. That's not fringe.

Bridget Todd (17:29):

Yeah. That's a great point. When people talk about how Donald Trump's free speech is being suppressed, he could do a press conference, do a press release there. I mean, presidents were able to get their thoughts out before social media existed. So he certainly has a plethora of channels with which to put his opinions out into the world. I think it's really something that we're acting as if the only avenue that he can do that is social media. That might be the way that Trump personally feels, but it is not the case.

Melissa Ryan (18:01):

Yeah. I really enjoyed Republicans going on national television complaining about how they're being silenced.

Bridget Todd (18:07):

It's like, "Ooh, I didn't realize that... When you have your speech suppressed, you get to go on the major cable news networks to talk about it." I mean, I think it really speaks to this idea of free speech for who, because we know that black activists, progressive groups have long complained about being suppressed on social media platforms. Those were conversations that completely predate what we're talking about. Yet now when it's Trump, who is having his accounts banned for terms of service violations repeatedly, that is the free speech issue. But all of the times where progressive groups and black activists and folks like that have said, "Oh, we're having our... We're being suppressed on social media platforms." It didn't seem to be that same issue.

Melissa Ryan (18:56):

All the folks and again, particularly black people, people of color, women, who've been driven offline by harassment from these folks, and we don't talk about that either. That's a form of de-platforming as well.

Bridget Todd (19:07):

So this is actually something I know a bit about firsthand. Once upon a time, I used to love the social media platform Reddit. There was a time in my life where I spent hours everyday moderating a subreddit that I loved. But that all ended after getting a lot of coordinated, sexist, racist harassment on the platform. It pretty quickly became clear that staying on Reddit would mean subjecting myself to a nonstop torrent of harassment and threats. So I left. I had been de-platformed.

Bridget Todd (19:35):

As someone who makes my living on the internet and has been online for a long time, even before all of this, something that I was always struck by is this idea that things that happen online aren't real or don't really matter, or don't have real world consequences. I think that's something that I have bumped up against pretty much my whole adult life. That if something happens online, just shut your computer, go outside. Why don't you delete your Twitter and focus on the real world? I wonder if we're finally getting to a point where folks can't say that anymore. Folks can't say, "Oh, it's just happening online." It's just happening, unfortunately and what have you, but actually what we know these things have real world consequences.

online rhetoric radicalizes folks and leads to offline action

Melissa Ryan (20:18):

Yeah. I mean, there's just not a recognition of how much online rhetoric radicalizes folks and leads to offline action. Whether that's terrorism, whether that's online harassment, in the case of progressive activists, your personal safety is often in danger. This week might've been a turning point in understanding that, but I feel like people who just don't want to think about it, that's an easy thing that they can say, "Oh, just turn your computer off."

Bridget Todd (20:46):

Yeah. I hate that. I mean, the first time that I ever had a scary harassment online, I remember going to law enforcement and this was many, many years ago. It was just so clear to me that they did not understand what I was describing or what I was dealing with. The officer that I spoke to was like, "Oh, you should just stay off of the internet." At that point in my life, I was a budding internet critic and budding organizer. So I was like, "So essentially you're telling me to quit my job, go back to college, find a brand new career." This idea that I could just end all of this by logging off, I found to be just really deeply exposed how little at that time law enforcement was taking this seriously.

Melissa Ryan (21:33):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. I mean, there's not a recognition that for so many of us, our jobs are largely online and our lives are largely online and just logging off just isn't an option for most of the population.

Bridget Todd (21:45):

Exactly. Something that you tweeted that I found so interesting. You said, "This is the last gasp of the Trump administration, but I worry about what it might've birthed." Tell me about that. Where do you think we go moving forward?

Melissa Ryan (22:00):

Yeah. I mean, it's going to be interesting, and I think a lot of where we go has to do with how much we hold the people responsible for this accountable. If we sweep this under the rug, we are sending a strong signal that, "You can... Terrorism is an okay way to get what you want politically." But I do think it's important to recognize that in, what, eight days now, Trump is no longer going to be the president. He's not going to have the power of the White House. He's not going to have the power of every agency in the federal government.

Melissa Ryan (22:25):

So his power to influence is going to be greatly diminished. I think Joe Biden has an opportunity to hold folks to account, to hold organizations to account and really start to get into the systemic changes that need to happen for this not to happen again. I think it's also going to be really interesting to see what Republicans do, because I mean, they're rattled. You saw McConnell on the floor that night, the man was visibly shaken. What are they going to do? That's going to tell us a lot about where things are going as well.

Bridget Todd (22:59):

More after this quick break. Let's get right back to it. I've been seeing a lot of people calling for unity right now.

Speaker 3 (23:17):

Let's try to come together.

Speaker 4 (23:19):

I think the first thing we need to do as leaders in America is lower the temperature and try to come together.

Speaker 5 (23:26):

I think we need to lower the rhetoric, we need to get some unity going...

Bridget Todd (23:30):

But you can't have unity without accountability, without justice. As one of the half a million Americans who calls Washington, D.C. my home, it's obvious we aren't there yet. Today, I'm preparing for an inauguration weekend where might not be safe to leave my apartment. I'm buying groceries and making plans in case the mayor declares an emergency curfew like she did the day of the riots. I'm watching elected officials and far right media outlets continue to traffic in the same baseless conspiracy theories that got us here in the first place that "Antifa or Democrats were responsible for the terror at the Capitol." Here's representative, Matt Gaetz, repeating a false claim on the house floor that a facial recognition company found quote, "Antifa members were part of the capital riots."

Matt Gaetz (24:21):

I don't know if the reports are true, but the Washington Times has just reported some pretty compelling evidence from a facial recognition company, showing that some of the people who breached the Capitol today were not Trump supporters. They were masquerading as Trump supporters, and in fact, were members of the violet terrorist group, Antifa.

Bridget Todd (24:43):

That's a total lie by the way. The Washington Times retracted the story after the facial recognition company threatened legal action. So where's the accountability? Melissa hopes President elect, Biden, can unite the country, but not without accountability for everyone. The insurgents who stormed the Capitol, but also the elected officials, media outlets and social media platforms who helped them get there. So you actually published what you called a roadmap to accountability. Tell me about that.

Melissa Ryan (25:13):

I think what has happened here is you can't even describe it as a systemic failure. We all, I think as Americans, have a role to play in holding institutions and people accountable. So I just mentioned where I thought were good places to start, and some of them we've talked about already. The tech companies, Trump and his administration, the Republican Party, law enforcement, particularly the white supremacy problem that we know and have in law enforcement, and the rioters themselves. I think what's interesting about Joe Biden, most of his rhetoric has been about unity and coming together, but he's also been very specific about the need for accountability. He called the writers seditionists yesterday, which I thought was great. When he was introducing his justice department nominees, he talked about the importance of holding these folks accountable, calling them out, calling what they did crimes. He called them... He used the words like terrorism and terrorist. So I don't necessarily want to discount what Joe Biden is going to do.

Bridget Todd (26:25):

So are you hopeful in this moment? When you think about the state of disinformation and how we got here, are you hopeful for what's on the horizon?

Melissa Ryan (26:33):

I mean, I'm not a hopeful person by nature. If I was, I probably wouldn't do this work because it would kill my soul. I will just say that I can see what's possible. I have also seen us particularly in the past decade of American politics make the wrong choice again and again, but I finally see a landscape where it is possible to start having some of these changes and accountability. We have the Senate, we have Congress, we have an administration that is signaled they're going to take domestic terrorism and white supremacy and disinformation seriously. So we have all the pieces in place.

Bridget Todd (27:11):

Yeah. That's a good way to think about it. So maybe not hopeful, but cautiously like, "We'll see what happens."

Melissa Ryan (27:18):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (27:19):

So one of my last questions for you is... I know that you've written quite a bit about this. Women and underrepresented communities are some of the biggest targets of disinformation, we disproportionately deal with it. What does it feel like to know that so much of the infrastructure of combating disinformation and violent rhetoric are women? When we are in these meetings, sometimes I look around on Zoom and I'm like, "Oh, this is... All the people who are here calling for accountability are women." What is it like? Also, seeing when insurrectionists are unmasked online, I feel a lot of the people doing that very dangerous but critical work are women.

Melissa Ryan (27:58):

Are women.

Bridget Todd (27:59):

Exactly. I just want to highlight our role in this work. Do you ever feel the same way?

Melissa Ryan (28:06):

I do. I both feel a great source of pride and then also a frustration when it's a panel of disinformation and they try to do all men who work in tech. So I think it's a situation that I see reflected in politics a lot where women are digging in and doing the work. A certain contingent of men are building profiles for themselves, so I think it's a mixed bag. I'm really glad to see that that work is happening, but I really wish more women got credit. I was so happy about... You mentioned women who were unmasking these guys. The profile in the Washington Post this weekend of Molly Conger and Emily Gorcenski, who have been doing this work of unmasking Nazis online just since Charlottesville. It was so great to see them get their due and their credit for this work.

Bridget Todd (28:56):

Absolutely. I also think not even that long ago, they were vilified for that work. It was seen as starting trouble online, and now I hope we're able to step back and say, "Actually, that very dangerous, thankless work they were doing, it's actually a reason why we're here now. That we have some hope and have some infrastructure for how we can move on from this and get accountability."

Melissa Ryan (29:21):

Yeah. It's been really gratifying seeing the whole internet being like, "Oh, we have to identify these guys." It still blows my mind how they were so not worried about consequences, that they all live streamed themselves committing crimes in the Capitol. I mean, it's terrifying, right? Because I think they truly thought they were going to win and hold onto the Capitol, but also I was just like, "Man, the stupidity that's on display right now."

Bridget Todd (29:42):

Yeah. I forget which guy it was, but one of the lawyers was on TV and was like, "Well, my client took selfies while doing it, and I'm not a magician." I thought, [inaudible 00:29:52] want to hear your lawyers say, "I'm not a magician."?

Melissa Ryan (29:56):

I watched that video so many times yesterday. Well, I'll do the best that I can.

Bridget Todd (30:03):

It really... What a time that we are living through. Melissa, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. Where can folks keep up with all the amazing work that you're doing and support it?

Melissa Ryan (30:14):

Oh, thank you so much. It's always great to talk to you, Bridget. So you can subscribe to Control Alt-Right Delete at controlaltrightdelete.com. It goes out every Sunday night. It's free. We now have more than 16,000 weekly readers. You can also find me on Twitter, @MelissaRyan.

Bridget Todd (30:30):

Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi, we'd love to hear from you at hello@tangoti.com. Disinformed is brought to you by There Are No Girls On The Internet. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Mike Amato is our producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.