Transcript

Bridget Todd (00:03):

You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are No Girls on the Internet. I am Bridget Todd.

Bridget Todd (00:13):

This week, Australian social media users suddenly found themselves banned from sharing content on Facebook. This was an escalation of Facebook's attempts to resist the Australian government's push to make big tech companies pay news publishers when news content shows up in their search results and their platforms. And according to FT, it's one of the most far-reaching restrictions Facebook has ever placed on publishers in any part of the world.

Bridget Todd (00:35):

This comes as Google struck a separate deal with Rupert Murdoch's News Corp to pay for some of their news content, resolving their ongoing dispute with the Australian media giant. Last month, Google threatened to pull out of Australia altogether.

Bridget Todd (00:47):

Now, the Facebook ban is far-reaching. It blocks posts from any Australian publisher from being seen anywhere in the world, and it blocks all users in Australia from seeing any news content, even from non-Australian publishers, The Washington Post reports. Facebook used the broadest definition of news content, so it's not just impacting news publishers. Organizations like non-profits and activist organizations, many of whom rely on social media to get their message and resources out there, were unable to do so. So for services like food banks or domestic violence centers, some of whom found themselves blocked from posting, Facebook's hasty move could keep people from getting access to critical resources during a pandemic.

Bridget Todd (01:24):

We need to talk about the ways this move will impact Australians who use the internet to do important work, people like digital organizer Tabitha Fulker. Tabitha and I met in the United States when I was running a boot camp for digital activists. Today, she runs OrganiseUs, an organization that trains Australian activists to use the internet and social media to make change. I joined her in Australia to help train digital activists in 2017, and she's been fighting for change since college.

Tabitha Fulker (01:50):

When I was at university, I got involved in grassroots environmental activism, so I was actually going down to forests and helping, stopping them getting cut down for, uh, wood chips. And so I very much started my kind of career, I guess, as it's become, in activism as a university student just seeing some injustices in the world and wanting to make some positive change around them. Um, and that led me into actually changing my major and becoming a journalist. And from there, um, after working on daily newspapers for years, I really missed the progressive sector, so I took a full-time role at a big national environmental organization where I was lucky enough, uh, to join that just at the time where digital technologies really started to shape the way that organizations were talking to their supporters.

Tabitha Fulker (02:44):

But through that, I kind of found myself, again, realizing that there was a lack of skills and understanding of what digital technologies can do, and I left that organization to start up OrganiseUs, which is a digital communication and training agency. So we work with lots of different non-profits and grassroots organizers by helping them to develop their digital strategy and roll that out, but also running a really comprehensive training program. And that's actually where I met you, Bridget, when I was lucky enough to come across to the US and learn under some amazing digital organizers, um, in how to both use technology but also how to train other people in using technology. Um, so that was quite a, a life-changing pivotal moment for me.

Bridget Todd (03:33):

From her training work, Tabitha has tapped in to a network of Australian climate and human rights campaigners who all use social media heavily in their work, and she says the Facebook ban sent panic through her community.

Tabitha Fulker (03:45):

So we all grabbed at our phones and went to log on to our Facebook pages and suddenly noticed that we couldn't share or post any news articles, and actually, for a lot of non-profit organizations, their Facebook profiles were entirely blank, so the banner images were gone and all the content was gone from their feeds. Um, and we went, "Oh, God. What's going on here?" And so jumped on to news sites, and quickly realized that Facebook had decided to implement their news sharing ban across the platform for anyone in Australia.

Tabitha Fulker (04:22):

So that basically means that you can't access or share any news articles of Australian media or international media across their platform if you're residing in Australia. Um, we knew that this was a possibility for a little while. So Australia, um, the Australian government has been in conversations with Facebook for a while around this idea that Facebook should be paying news agencies like Rupert Murdoch to have access to news on their platform. So there's been a really big tussle going on politically, and Facebook ... Basically, a large piece of that legislation passed our House of Representatives last week and is likely to pass our upper house, the Senate, within a week's time.

Tabitha Fulker (05:12):

So I guess Facebook realized that it needed to kind of fire a warning shot about what this new, new media landscape would look like if the Australian government went ahead with creating this legislation.

Bridget Todd (05:27):

So how was Facebook able to do this, and what were some of the impacts that you saw?

Tabitha Fulker (05:30):

Well, the, the problem was is that they ... And the problem is, is that there's no legal definition of what news is in Australia. So Facebook has turned around and said, "Well, if there isn't a legal definition of what news is that we can agree on, we're going to take the broadest term of what news is." And that is how it's impacted a lot of, um, government Facebook pages, health-based Facebook pages, and non-profit and community organizing Facebook pages. They sort of cast the net really wide to show that it's going to be really difficult to regulate this piece of legislation if it goes through.

Tabitha Fulker (06:08):

And so, for us, um, it was really difficult because, first of all, we're in a global pandemic, and people are relying on social media to access health information. And there were local and community pages that are giving that information who suddenly found their entire Facebook feed empty of content. Um, and also, a lot of amazing campaigns and organizations that have invested time, energy, and money into developing these Facebook communities over years and years and years find, panicking that all of that hard work and that community was now gone.

Tabitha Fulker (06:41):

So there was definitely a sense of panic, and we noticed that. My inbox started to explode. My messaging was exploding because we work with so many organizations across their digital, where they were saying, "Our pages are blank. What's going on?" And so we reached out to Facebook, um, and, and pulled together a spreadsheet. And apparently, in that spreadsheet, there's over 200 non-profits and community groups whose pages have been impacted. So we've put out the call, and organizations have been listing their issues.

Tabitha Fulker (07:10):

So basically, there's two issues. One is that, as I've already explained, the pages are entirely blank of content. Or, a second issue, um, and you could fall into both of these categories or just one of these categories, the second issue is that organizations found that they could no longer post web links from their own websites. So for example, the Australian Council of Trade Unions couldn't post the link to their join the union page. It was blocked.

Tabitha Fulker (07:35):

And so Facebook, um, we reached out to Facebook, and they told us that they were taking the broadest sense of what the news was but that they did not expect, um, government, political, and some non-news and, um, non-for-profit pages to be impacted by yesterday's announcement and that the actions that they were taking were focused on restricting publishers and people in Australia from sharing or viewing Australian and international news content. The problem was is that they implemented this incredibly fast based on the government's process, and it's, it's caused chaos.

Tabitha Fulker (08:14):

There's been a lot of issues and a lot of glitches. So they've asked us, in good faith, to give them that spreadsheet, and that they are going through it and reinstating those pages that are impacted. Um, and of those 500 pages, I've had a look this morning, and about 10 have been reinstated so far. Um, and they're moving through and have committed to be reinstating those pages.

Bridget Todd (08:37):

I've read reports of food banks having their Facebook pages be blocked. You know, domestic violence shelters. We're in a ... We're still in a pandemic, and it's, you know, the idea that Facebook would allow for people who are providing critical services, time-sensitive critical services ... You know, food, domestic violence. This stuff can't wait. The fact that they would block these pages as a, as a kind of bargaining chip is really something.

Tabitha Fulker (09:06):

It is really something, but I do ... I do want to clarify that I don't think this is a war between Facebook and the Australian government. I think this is a war between Facebook and Rupert Murdoch-

Bridget Todd (09:16):

Ooh.

Tabitha Fulker (09:17):

And so we have two massive monopolies. We've got the traditional media monopoly with the figurehead of Rupert Murdoch, and then we've got this new media landscape and monopoly, um, with the head of Zuckerberg. And so this is really a money-grabbing exercise. So I think that when you look at the media bargaining code, which is this piece of legislation that we're talking about, the code itself is really flawed. It's had a flawed approach from the start. Um, Facebook blocking access to news for Australians is just one of the possible outcomes of this proposal.

Tabitha Fulker (09:53):

If we're really serious about looking at media ownership and having a fair, democratic media landscape, both in the traditional media and the new media, we need people who are making decisions around these that are informed on these technologies, who are understanding that these are ju-, these are also communities. It's not straight broadcast media in that traditional term. And that, fundamentally, Facebook doesn't have to be putting up news media because they're a privately owned company. So they have done that in the past.

Tabitha Fulker (10:25):

So I think that there are some big, broad philosophical conversations that we need to be having around the future of media, both in the traditional sense and the new media sense.

Bridget Todd (10:35):

This dispute between Facebook and Rupert Murdoch has created big problems for digital organizers like Tabitha. But as a campaigner and a former journalist, someone whose work involves persuasion and sending an effective message, she kind of understands it as a tactic.

Tabitha Fulker (10:48):

Rupert Murdoch has a direct line of communication with Australia's prime minister, so I think that, as much as I entirely disagree with Facebook's approach of blocking so many pages and so many incredibly vital pages, I do, I do understand the approach and the, um ... We're campaigners. And so if I was going to run a campaign on this front, you would be thinking about, there's the threat of legislation being implemented in five days' time. We need to show what the impact of this could look like.

Bridget Todd (11:19):

Hmm.

Tabitha Fulker (11:20):

And Australia's being used as that case study and that scapegoat in that. So Facebook really needs to reinstate these pages if they're going to keep, um, that community spirit alive on its platforms. It needs to understand and apologize for this with its community. But I also, a part of me as, uh, as a reformed journalist, as I like to call it, I understand the why, the why they're taking-

Bridget Todd (11:44):

Hmm-

Tabitha Fulker (11:45):

This approach. Um, news media in Australia accounts for about four percent of the content that's across Facebook. And I think that there are some incredibly clever campaigners and organizers who have already noticed that over the last 12 months, Facebook has kind of been moving in this direction. If you post a news link on your, your page, your engagement is really low. But if you are repurposing that news and repurposing that content through the voice of your supporters and the voice of your community, then your engagement spikes.

Tabitha Fulker (12:14):

So as digital organizers and content creators, we need to be thinking about how we are telling our own stories in our own way and really focusing in on that engagement. Having said that, then that also does bring real concerns around misinformation being portrayed across these platforms when we can have really solid, fact-check, um, fact-checked, independent reportage on these platforms, as well.

Bridget Todd (12:40):

That's such a great point, and I know that, as a digital organizer and your network of digital organizers, you know, y'all are some of the most innovative folks out there. Have folks already started talking about, you know, creative ways around it? Like how you're going to sort of innovate so that you can still get your message out there, even with Facebook doing these kinds of things?

Tabitha Fulker (12:58):

Definitely. So we facilitated a snap webinar yesterday afternoon, um, with most of the progressive organizers across Australia. So everyone, hundreds of people jumped on to a webinar, and we started to have that exact conversation. First of all, we just wanted to let everyone know that we've been having these conversations and that Facebook is promising to reinstate these pages, but then we stepped into the space to have those conversations. So, um, basically, it's like how to tell the news without having to actually link across to news.

Tabitha Fulker (13:29):

And there are some really interesting, fun, and creative ways of doing that. Um, and we started having that shared conversation. And, and that's getting everybody to be thinking about what does this look like? Everyone's really happy to move away from the Rupert Murdoch press. Um, the part of this that is really stru-, is going to continue to struggle is like independent media, um, satire, political commentary, because they are all currently falling under that definition of news and are losing, um, their ability to post their content.

Tabitha Fulker (14:00):

So, I mean, there's a really good opportunity for cartoonists, for graphic designers, for video, um, creators to think about new ways of sharing news and getting that information across. But bloody hell. Hopefully, uh, Facebook does reverse its decision, and we can start to share news links again because, ideally, this isn't the way we want to continue going forward.

Bridget Todd (14:25):

What do you think about the idea that Facebook, just one company, has the p-, this kind of power to really shape the entire media landscape of Australia? Like what do you think of one company having that power to, to have that kind of impact?

Tabitha Fulker (14:40):

I think it's a, it's a flawed approach. But, um, and sadly, we've been living in a monopoly media landscape for a really long time. Um, so I don't agree that Facebook should be able to hold that kind of power, and I also don't agree that large organizations like News Corp can be holding that amount of power. Um, a decision was made, uh, federal, again, government decision was made a few years ago, which enabled Rupert Murdoch to buy up most of the regional newspapers across Australia. And in the last 12 months, they've closed 112 local newspapers. Just closed them and moved them into a digital landscape.

Tabitha Fulker (15:21):

So if, if the news agencies and news, um, monopolies are really serious about driving revenue, they should be continuing these publications and allowing local ad spends to, to fuel their business model. So I disagree that Facebook should be funding Rupert Murdoch's business model, but I also disagree that Facebook should be, uh, able to basically run tax-free in so many countries across the world, as well.

Tabitha Fulker (15:48):

So we, we need to be looking at the way big tech is regulated, um, at that federal level. But I don't think that it should just be an argument between traditional media or new media and allow that to create the discourse.

Bridget Todd (16:02):

Definitely. I completely agree. And I think that something that you really point out that I think is essential is that, you know, in this, in these two, uh, factions of media warring, it's independent journalism, it's local journalism, it's pe-, it's people making content that are already marginalized or having a hard time getting that platform who I feel can really be in the cross-hairs. And it's important to lift up the folks who are, you know, doing that work, whether it's, you know, local journalists or, you know, satire or folks who may not have this big platform. I, I worry that it's those already marginalized creators and, you know, uh, journ-, and media makers who are going to be most hurt by these kinds of decisions.

Tabitha Fulker (16:46):

Absolutely. It would be a great outcome of this battle if, uh, independent media, satirists, um, political commentators were able to get a seat at the table and develop a categorization of what news is and allow these smaller, um, thought-provoking think tanks to still be able to build up their audiences across these platforms and all those communities. Imagine if we were able to kind of dull the noise of the right-wing or the, uh, Rupert Murdoch-owned media across these platforms and enabled these smaller ones to have a bigger voice and take up more space on it. That would be a fantastic outcome of this process.

Bridget Todd (17:33):

That's exactly what I want to see globally. You know, more people being included in the conversation and having a seat at the table and a real voice, and not just big, right-wing noise machines being able to drown everyone else out. So what's next? You know, what's the path forward?

Tabitha Fulker (17:46):

We get creative. We come together as a community. We hold Facebook accountable and make Facebook recognize that it has been, like, the non-profit sector is huge, and they've invested money, resources, energy, and time into building these communities, and they need to reinstate these pages immediately, um, and ensure that they are, continue to be thriving communities, um, particularly around these issues that everyone's advocating for.

Tabitha Fulker (18:19):

But then, I think this is a great opportunity as organizers to become together and be super creative, thinking about how we are telling our own stories, relying less on traditional media, coming up with creative ways of amplifying diverse voices, diverse, um, ways of developing content, and ensuring that, uh, we also, uh, are stepping out into a whole bunch of different platforms that are allowing our stories to be told and are not holding us accountable, um, based on these decisions and this legislation.

Bridget Todd (18:53):

Is there anybody or any organization out there who you think is really doing cutting-edge creative work around getting their story out there?

Tabitha Fulker (19:02):

Um, funnily enough, I've fallen in love with a couple of different news, um, sources on Instagram who are just simply using the slide technique to tell news media stories really quickly, so in soundbites. Um, I think that that's fantastic. There's a woman, Jess Harwood, who has just been thriving over the past 12 months. She's a cartoonist, and she is supporting the work of so many different organizations with really creative storytelling, um, and getting her work kind of broadcast on the BBC, for example. Um, I think that there are some incredible video producers, and there's an organization in Australia that is really kind of 12 months ago decided that it wanted to sort of step away, as I was mentioning, from regular news media, and that's GetUp. And they have just seen incredible engagement when they are putting news stories through the voices and through the faces of their community, their membership-based community.

Tabitha Fulker (20:04):

Um, people are wanting to follow these pages because they're interested in storytelling from that page's perspective, and I think we need to remember that, that we are our own best storytellers.

Bridget Todd (20:17):

I love that. Tabitha, where can folks keep up with all the amazing work that you're doing?

Tabitha Fulker (20:22):

So they can follow us at OrganiseUs.com.au. Um, jump on there. We've got a newsletter that we're emailing out to people. We have, um, some incredible Facebook pages and groups that are still-

Bridget Todd (20:35):

(laughs)

Tabitha Fulker (20:36):

Currently operating.

Bridget Todd (20:37):

(laughs)

Tabitha Fulker (20:39):

And, uh, we are running a whole comprehensive training program that is going to be really leaning into this issue and really encouraging organizers to be thinking about how they're creating engaging content, content across multiple channels, in really fun and engaging ways so that we're not caught up in this tussle between traditional media and new tech, but we're being able to tell our own stories our own way.

Bridget Todd (21:09):

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi? We'd love to hear from you at hello@tangoti.com. Disinformed is brought to you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboxed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.