Bridget Todd (00:00):

There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

Bridget Todd (00:17):

Did you know the trashcan logo, the Sad Mac icon and all the other Apple logos and typography that made up the look and feel of early personal computing was actually designed by a woman?

Bridget Todd (00:27):

On The Stuff Mom Never Told You podcast, where I'm a tech correspondent, we did an episode for Women's History Month that was really fun, because I got to talk about Susan Kare, an influential Apple designer and one of my favorite women in tech. And I had such a good time that I wanted to share it with all of you. Listen to me, alongside Stuff Mom Never Told You co-hosts, Anney and Sam, for a deep dive into the lasting legacy of Susan Kare, the artist behind Apple.

Anney (00:56):

Hey, this is Anney.

Samantha (00:57):

And Samantha.

Anney (00:59):

And welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.

Anney (01:10):

Today we are so thrilled to be joined in the virtual studio space by our friend and colleague Bridget Todd. Hello Bridget.

Bridget Todd (01:19):

Hello. I'm so excited to be back here with you all.

Samantha (01:22):

We missed you. Welcome back.

Bridget Todd (01:23):

Thank you.

Anney (01:23):

Yes.

Bridget Todd (01:25):

Thank you. I missed you too, as always.

Samantha (01:27):

You're so blessed.

Anney (01:28):

You're so busy, though. We know. We know, you're constantly going.

Bridget Todd (01:30):

Well, I can always make room for my two favorite ladies.

Anney (01:35):

Ooh, yes.

Anney (01:37):

We were discussing before this, we're very excited for this topic, particularly because we have different levels of experience when it comes to computers and technology. And in this case, Samantha you were saying you don't know Mac very well.

Samantha (01:51):

No. I am so not in the loop. I've never used a Mac. I don't have an iPhone. I'm so far away from those products. And I'm a little scared of it, because every time I've been on a friend's, I literally look at it and touch a button, something goes wrong so I hand it right back. I'm like, "I'm sorry."

Bridget Todd (02:07):

You're like, "I launched a missile. I don't know what the [inaudible 00:02:09]. Sorry."

Samantha (02:11):

I'm pretty sure I just started a war somewhere. I am so sorry.

Anney (02:13):

I feel like that too though, because my phone is the swipe, and one time my friend handed me her phone and was like, "Can you text this message?" And it was not a swipe and I stared at it like, "This makes no sense to me. I cannot figure this out."

Samantha (02:30):

Yeah, when it [inaudible 00:02:31] technology, when you're used to one way and then you try and figure out something else, I feel like it's a trap.

Bridget Todd (02:37):

It's so true. It's so true. So I use an iPhone. Most of my friends do not use iPhones. They use Google Pixels. When I am handed a Google Pixel, it does not matter how many times I have been schooled on how to do the most basic stuff, we're not talking about anything advanced, I have to ask, like, "Wait, is it this? Is it that?" Every time. Without fail.

Anney (02:57):

Which actually relates really well to what we're talking about today. So, who did you bring for us to discuss, Bridget?

Bridget Todd (03:04):

So today we're discussing Susan Kare. I'm so excited to talk about her, mostly because it's Women's History Month. That's why I think it's a good time to honor women who maybe don't always get a lot of the loud, public support. And also the fact that Susan Kare, despite being very much part of tech history, she's still alive. She's still with us. I'm a big believer in giving people their flowers while they're still alive to smell them, not waiting until someone is no longer here to be like, "Oh, I loved their work. I loved their work." But celebrating their achievements and their legacy while they're still here. She's very much still intact, making tech history as we speak. And I also just feel like sometimes I come on this show and I bring topics that are a little negative, because, let's face it, sometimes being a woman on the internet is not that fun, but there's also lots of fun, joyous, cool, perky aspects of it as well. So I'm super excited to talk about Susan Kare.

Anney (04:00):

Yes. And, I'd never heard about her story, and I loved it so much because I know we've talked before on the show, a lot about women in technology space, and how there is often these negative aspects to it, or being intimidated off of it in various ways. And as somebody who's really creative, like we're in my cosplay closet as I call it in here... But, I love the application of how she got into technology. I think it is such a great story.

Bridget Todd (04:33):

Yeah, so let's get into it. If you've ever spent any time around not just Macs but computers in general, you've probably encountered Susan Kare's work or her legacy. So, first and foremost, I should say if you have not seen a picture of her, there's an iconic picture of her with this awesome, 80s, blown out, curly hair and a sweatshirt, and these amazing New Balance sneakers, with her sneakers kicked up on her desk at her old school computer. Ya'll, please Google a picture of her because it is iconic and, truly, just this one picture, I saw it on the subreddit OldSchoolCool. I was like, "Who is this woman? I have to look her up and find out everything about her." She is amazing.

Anney (05:13):

Yes, she's so effortlessly cool in a way that I will never achieve. I saw it and I was like, "Wow! Okay."

Samantha (05:20):

I'm looking at it right now. I have to Google it. And I'm like, "This is kind of what people want to look like today," outside of the outdated computers in the background, which, by the way, I used those in elementary school, so don't start with me, A. B, she is exactly what people like, "Oh, we want to look like this." This is such a great throwback. And she looks so comfortable, so relaxed, and ridiculously cool. I want to be this cool.

Bridget Todd (05:46):

Yeah, she is like an advertisement for Everlane. I feel like the norm, core vibes, of baggy sweatshirt and relaxed fit jeans. She's rocking it. Honestly, you could wear the outfit that's she's wearing in 1980, whenever this photo was taken, you could wear today and people would be like, "Oh, cool outfit."

Samantha (06:05):

That's what I'm saying. This outfit looks so comfortable, but she looks so freaking stylish that I'm like, "I don't want to be back here in this fashion." Because I did wear that once upon a time and that was when it was supposed to be cool when I was a young baby.

Bridget Todd (06:21):

I love it. So Susan Kare, she designed a huge part of the digital infrastructure of using a Mac computer back in the 80s. I'm talking all of the fonts, all of the typography, and all of the little icons. If you ever remember the little happy Mac when you booted up the computer, the little computer with a smiley face, that was Susan Kare. The concept of the icons for your computer matching up with the thing that you were going to do, even if you don't use a Mac, even if you use a PC, that's still a concept that we use today. So she really was an early architect of how being online looked and felt. And then also the concept of it, how we conceptually move around when we're using a computer.

Bridget Todd (07:03):

And, it's funny, because I had also never heard of her. I've been using a Mac for most of my life. It was the first computer that we had in our home when I was a kid, in what my parents called the computer room, where you could never bring a snack or a drink or my dad would kill you, was a Mac. And I had never even heard of her even though she had shaped such a big part of my online experiences both as a child and today. So, really excited to be giving her a little bit of shine because that's so iconic that she was the architect of that.

Samantha (07:38):

Right. So the little story that I have about this happy Mac and the one reason I kind of know what that is... I've seen the other things. I've seen the watch little icon before. I feel like a lot of these are associated to me as something-bad-is-about-to-happen-because-I-did-something-wrong signs, usually. Because, the one episode that I remember in Sex and the City-

Bridget Todd (07:59):

Yes!

Samantha (08:00):

You know what I'm talking about.

Bridget Todd (08:01):

Yes!

Samantha (08:01):

... where here Mac crashes and she gets a Sad Mac. And the dude keeps telling her, "You got the Sad Mac. Sorry, you can't fix it." And this whole conversation about the Sad Mac. And I'm like, "Why does it have to be a Sad Mac?" And then it's a dead Mac because it's got the Xs on the eyes and about how angry it looks. I was like, "Yeah, that does not make me want to get a Mac."

Bridget Todd (08:24):

Yeah, I feel like that episode probably scared a lot of people. Also, fun fact. This is how deep my Sex and the City knowledge goes. The guy who tells her that at the computer store, Aasif Mandvi from the Daily Show.

Samantha (08:36):

Yes, yes, yes. He's a comedian. I love it when they bring in comedians that you don't really know but you always know their face.

Bridget Todd (08:43):

Love it. Love it.

Samantha (08:44):

Anney, you've got to hop on board. This is what you're missing out when you haven't seen Sex and the City.

Bridget Todd (08:49):

Wait, Anney's never seen it?

Samantha (08:51):

She's seen like two episodes.

Anney (08:53):

I've seen the first episode and that's it really.

Bridget Todd (08:57):

Girl, what are you putting on in the background while you're doing something else? What are you putting on in the background when you're doing the dishes? Come on.

Anney (09:07):

I'm ready. I want to embark on this journey. I'm just a little nervous.

Samantha (09:11):

So, Bridget, when we have our Sex and the City, we're going to do a live watching, live viewing party. You want to join us?

Bridget Todd (09:19):

Yes, of course. And they are getting ready to make another [inaudible 00:09:23] of that movie. I have a love-hate relationship with Sex and the City. You look back and you're like, "Well this is problematic." Or like, "Well, this is not good." But there's just something about it where I'm like, "I know I'll probably watch it." They're like, "You'll take this problematic movie with a bunch of lazy puns." Like, "We'll just take it." They know what I want.

Samantha (09:44):

Sarah Jessica Paker's character, Carrie, that Mac at the very beginning, the fact that she carries it around like it's her treasure. She and the Mac go hand-in-hand in the show.

Bridget Todd (09:57):

Her work, I feel, is grounded around the Mac.

Samantha (10:00):

It really is.

Bridget Todd (10:00):

If you kept watching, the episode toward the end, when she moves to Paris, she leaves her Mac in her apartment. So Charlotte goes to her apartment, and she's like, "Her computer was just sitting there." It's like such a big deal. And it's actually funny that you say this because when I was thinking through this episode I didn't think about this, but now I'm like, "Oh my God, how many different times have Macs been..." Like I'm thinking of Legally Blonde, when Elle Woods goes to get her orange Mac and all of her stuffy law students are on their black laptops, and she's on the orange Mac. I guess I had never really thought about how many times Macs have been part of popular culture lexicon.

Samantha (10:43):

It has. I kind of goes into, like, being a designer piece almost.

Bridget Todd (10:46):

Yeah. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to get permission to show Mac. Normally, you have to get the company's... and pay. But they wanted people to think like, "Oh, this is a cool, stylish, ubiquitous technology."

Samantha (11:02):

Smart.

Bridget Todd (11:02):

I think the only time you have to check is if it's something real, real bad. Like real bad. [inaudible 00:11:07].

Samantha (11:09):

Yeah, you're like beating a man to death with it.

Bridget Todd (11:10):

Yeah, I think that's the only time.

Samantha (11:16):

I remember, as I'm looking at some of these things, I remember seeing the little bomb icon as a part of the show as well. And again, like I said, that to me is like a big warning sign.

Bridget Todd (11:25):

I mean, yeah.

Samantha (11:28):

I don't know what the bomb means, but the bomb means something bad.

Bridget Todd (11:31):

Yeah. You see the bomb, designed by Susan Kare... Hopefully you never have to see it, but if you put in a command that doesn't work, and it's like, "Uh-oh, no good. Bad." And also, even the different icons that you're describing, the Sad Mac, the bomb, one of the things that Susan Kare really architected was this idea of the interface being super user-friendly. So when you do something that is bad, it is very obvious that it is bad. It is a bomb. It is a sad face. It could not be more clear that you have done something incorrect. Or when something is good, when you would boot up a Mac, you would see a smiley face. All of that was intentionally designed by Kare to make people who might have been using a computer for the first time, who might have been a little bit skittish about using a computer, help them, shepherd them, through the experience in ways that are super easy to understand, which I really appreciate even as someone who enjoys tech can sometimes be a little bit tech challenged, shall we say.

Samantha (12:29):

You're right. As I am. It definitely tells me when I'm doing something wrong. I'm like, "Oh, I'm just waiting. Great." And look at the happy face.

Anney (12:38):

Exactly. And those are things you take for granted, right? Somebody had to think through that process and design those things, especially when computers were so new and people were like, "What is this huge, behemoth thing that's expensive? I don't want to wreck it by pressing the wrong button."

Bridget Todd (12:56):

Exactly. And what's funny is that some people who are a bit younger might be thinking, "Oh, what's the big deal?" But, truly, keep in mind that back then, in the early days of personal computers, most people did not have a personal computer in their home at that point. And so computers were these big, clunky, boxy nightmares that were really inclined for mathematicians or engineers, not just like your regular user. And so somebody had to take the time to design ways of illustrating what you were doing in ways that would be simple and user-friendly and not scary, not intimidating. The whole idea is that you want people to feel the freedom of having a personal computer in their house. It has to feel like something they can really master themselves. And so Susan Kare's design was a big part of why personal computing later took off.

Samantha (13:46):

Right. Her history is pretty interesting. Why don't you tell us how she even got started into this industry.

Bridget Todd (13:51):

So, this is my favorite thing. Her background was in art. She was a sculptor. She worked in visual arts. So she is not someone who has hard technical skills. She described herself as completely non-technical. And, the reason that she first got involved in graphic design in the first place is because her mom taught her these skills that we commonly associate with femininity, like needlepoint and embroidery. Which, luckily, those two skills work in small grids. If you've ever done needlepoint, you're moving a thread through a tiny box. And so, when she was designing things on a computer for Apple, it also was a small box. So, if it wasn't for her mom teaching her these highly domestic tasks, personal computing might have gone a completely different direction.

Bridget Todd (14:40):

I just love that because it's such a good reminder that you don't have to be a coder, you don't have to be a hacker, to make an impression in tech, or to have ownership over it. So I always like to remember that. That if it wasn't for her mom teaching her how to sew and do needlepoint, truly, I might not be recording this podcast on my MacBook Pro right now. Things might look different.

Anney (15:01):

When you're thinking about people you do associate with, particularly Mac, but technology and computers in general, it is often men. And you do often have this assumption that they must be really technically-minded and gotten a lot of education in those fields, and the names we remember are them. But, what Susan Kare did is a huge part of how the technology we use, particularly with Macs, but in other things, and it is a nontraditional route and this feminized skill set in this traditionally masculized, or seen as a very masculine field. And I just love it. I love it so much.

Bridget Todd (16:02):

Yeah, it's a good reminder for all of us. I did an interview on my own podcast with this really amazing historian and technologist, Claire Evans. She has this book all about the history of women in computing, and I guess the thesis would be that we are often told that technology is a boy's club and that women and other marginalized people are trying to break their way in. But, actually, women have been at the start of computing since the beginning. And so it's rightfully our domain. We are not trying to break in anywhere. It is our landscape.

Bridget Todd (16:32):

Some of the reasons why women kind of get pushed out of tech, both in terms of careers, but also just in terms of who gets remembered, who doesn't, who goes overlooked. First of all, just to be clear, a lot of it is just good old fashioned sexism. Nothing special about that. But then another aspect of it is exactly what you were saying, is that, a lot of times, the contributions that women have made to computers and technology are things that are a little bit harder to preserve. If you make an actual computer, that can go in a museum. That's a solid, tangible thing. If you design a concept, or do something cool on a message board, or develop an icon or something graphic that is less tangible, those things are harder to preserve and more ephemeral.

Bridget Todd (17:21):

And so, a lot of that work throughout the years has been associated with women and feminization. This idea that women are, a lot of the times, the ones who are building the things that are a little more difficult to hold onto. And thus, these contributions can really go overlooked, unless we make intentional efforts to preserve them, to highlight them, to amplify them. All of that. So, completely agree. Completely agree.

Anney (17:46):

Yes, and here we are, talking about it. And, because I'll take every opportunity to bring it up, I do think too, if you look at something like fan fiction, the website AO3 was one of the biggest coding projects of its time and it was women who did it, but it doesn't get a lot of respect, because it's women and marginalized people who did it. And it's seen as this kind of weird corner of women fandom, therefore not worth the respect as something else more masculine.

Bridget Todd (18:15):

Right. Technology is nothing without people using it for something, without users. And those people who were building that, they were architects of something important. And that we would not even see that as worthy of preservation or mentioning is a real crime. I think we really do have to go back and look at history and say, "Well where are the times where..." Because this was associated with women or marginalized people, just doing something geeky on the internet, you know how women are, whether it's fan fiction, or recipe blogs, or anything like that. Why do those things not deserve to be remembered in the same way that some of the other more obvious contributions to computing and technology in our digital landscape? I completely agree that we need to have a wholescale rethinking of what is worthy of preservation because I'm not down to just live in a world where the stuff that we make, that marginalized people, that women make, is just not worthy of preservation. No way.

Samantha (19:11):

Right.

Anney (19:13):

Yeah. Absolutely not. Thank you for letting me bring up fan fiction all the time. I cannot help myself. I also think it's a good correlation to Susan Kare's story where there is this creative, non-technical thing that she was involved with. And she was able to translate that into technology because there was this need. And I think also having to predict what people's concerns would be, and predict what would soothe those concerns and be clear. Perhaps coming from a different background actually helped her with that.

Bridget Todd (19:54):

I think so. I love that point. I think so. So she says that when she first got the call to design things for Apple, she was like, "I don't know what any of this is." I love this little detail: She was in the middle of working on a life-size sculpture of a hog when she got... If that doesn't tell you all need to know about Susan Kare, I feel like that really...

Samantha (20:17):

I want to see it if she finished it.

Anney (20:18):

Yes.

Bridget Todd (20:20):

Yes. Ooh, that's a good question.

Samantha (20:21):

I want to know. I want to see this picture of what she was working on. Did she get to finish it?

Anney (20:26):

Yes. Internet sleuths, please, let us know.

Bridget Todd (20:32):

Elbow deep in hog, right?

Samantha (20:34):

Yes.

Bridget Todd (20:36):

She gets this call from Andy Hertzfeld, who she had gone to high school with, and he was a member of the original Apple Macintosh development team during the 80s. And he asked her to hand draw some icons and [inaudible 00:20:47] to help inspire what was going to be this Mac interface. This was a completely new concept to her. She was like, "I had no idea what I was doing." But, luckily, Andy had an idea because he knew that she worked with design and graphics. He told her to go out and guy the smallest, tiniest, graph paper that she could find, and then use it to block out 32x32 inch squares and fill them with color to come up with the designs. Because what she would be designing would be a matrix that was essentially a grid. So, again, back to that needlepoint, embroidery upbringing that she had, which really helped her work in this grid function. Truly probably could not have provided a better basis or education for the work that she would go on to be doing that she had no idea that she would be so foundational in.

Bridget Todd (21:32):

And, luckily, these skills really came to her rescue. She says, "Bitmap graphics are like mosaics and needlepoint and other pseudo-digital art forms, all of which I had practiced before going to Apple." This is what she told somebody in an interview in 2000. You never know what skill is going to apply later in your life. I'm sure when her mom was teaching her needlepoint, she probably was like, "This is really fun and awesome." She probably was not thinking, "And I will go on to revolutionize personal computing because you have taught me how to do needlepoint mom."

Anney (22:05):

Right. So I run a Dungeons and Dragons champaign, and I use Python coding to run it. Basically, Python is a bunch of if/then statements. But I think you can take a really creative, non-technical thing and you can construct it in a way where you can make it work in that sense. Because if you think about conversation, if X, then Y, you can... There's something I find really interesting that you can take those things and you can experiment with them in that way. You can take needlepoint and think about it in this way, of coding. I love that stuff.

Bridget Todd (22:50):

Are there other things that you have learned that you feel might help you when you're coding in Python? Are there other skills that you're like, "Oh, I wouldn't have thought that this would be something that would help me think about Python," but actually has been helpful?

Anney (23:04):

So something that helps me use Python more?

Bridget Todd (23:07):

Or just in general in the work that you do when you're building out these things?

Anney (23:12):

The reason I started doing that is because, essentially, it's almost exactly like this. You have to, when you're running a game, you have to predict what people are going to do, and that could be anything. That could be literally anything. It's like project management where you have to analyze a person and then try to make that work in a game system, in a technical, rule-based game. So you've got this really illogical, chaotic person. Now I've got to make that work in a way where I can say, "If X, then Y," so the game doesn't break.

Anney (23:53):

So I would say reading people and project management... Because, again, a lot of interactions in life, it's almost cold to think of it this way, but you can see, in a technical sense of, like, person Y needs this, therefore, these actions happen. You can map out, to a certain extent, people and their behavior.

Bridget Todd (24:18):

That's so fascinating.

Samantha (24:19):

It's a whole theorem. You have to do all these little hypothesis of, "This may happen" so you have to problem solve ahead of time. I know nothing about Dungeons and Dragons. Just what she tells me.

Anney (24:31):

It's wild.

Bridget Todd (24:34):

I mean, it completely is. And I think, if you take that to it's logical next step, like in tech workplaces and stuff... This is why I always say if you're someone who's listening and you're like, "I want to be more involved in tech. I want to work in a tech space," you do not have to have tech hard skills to be someone who makes their living, or takes up a big footprint in tech. People need to have people reading skills, problem solving skills, critical thinking skills. Those are not necessarily what we think of as tech hard skills, but these are all things that go into being able to think in this way. And so I just love this example because I think it really does illustrate how all of these different skills that aren't necessarily the hard skill, or knowing Python, or knowing the code. They will help you when you're doing these kinds of things. It's like a whole way of thinking. I love that example.

Samantha (25:24):

There's definitely a whole correlation between art, music, and math. We know that that's been proven to be a linkage. And which is why people talk about losing arts and losing music is really detrimental for a lot of kids' learnings and just overall development. And this is one of those more things because not only was she doing art, which she's amazing at. I saw some of the pieces that she's selling now. I'm like, "Wow, it's gorgeous!" But that that translated into these little squares and dots, which also equals numbers and such. This is me knowing all this stuff, obviously. But the fact that there's a greater picture of how it's all correlated, that it is linked.

Bridget Todd (26:00):

Oh, absolutely. I obvious am such a big advocate for young people going into Stem and Steam fields and getting that kind of education. But, I also think you're exactly right that you have to have a well-rounded approach. And so, if we lose the arts, if we lose music and the funding for these things, then people are like, "Oh, well, just learn to code and get a job like that." It'll be so much harder if these students are not well-rounded students who do not have a well-rounded arts education. I'm an English major. I did not have a hard skills background. So many people who made a big splash in tech had arts degrees, humanities degrees, studied music, studied literature. So I definitely am a big advocate for a well-rounded approach. I am not someone who is like, "Oh, just learn to code. That'll solve all your problems." Because we do need all kinds of skills to have young people who are really equipped to go into these fields.

Anney (26:57):

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things in this story, in Susan Kare's story, is one of my favorite, random... I guess it's a good tell of when you grew up, in terms of technology when you're talking about her legacy, because if you examine some of these symbols.... My ex-boyfriend used to argue so hard, "We need to redefine what these mean because they don't mean the same thing any more."

Bridget Todd (27:22):

Right.

Anney (27:22):

One is the icon for saving, if you could talk about that.

Bridget Todd (27:27):

Oh, it is such a good one. So Susan Kare came up with that concept of the icon being an association or an illustration of the thing that you were doing. So, like, the paint bucket being used to fill a surface with color, or the scissors being used to be the cut function. So when you think about the save function, if you are a contemporary and I think, Anney and Samantha, I think you all as well, when you were saving something, you had to save it on a floppy disk. You could put a floppy disk, that square with the metal thing on it, into your computer. And, not only that, you had to manually hit "save" every 15, 20 minutes. Otherwise it wouldn't save.

Bridget Todd (28:04):

Now, here in 2021, you're probably working in Google Docs or some other kind of interface. It saves automatically. You don't have to put any kind of external thing into your computer for it to save. Just the concept is so different. Yet, the little disk, it's still the image for "save". I don't know that young people know what that... They're probably not as innately familiar with the floppy disk as we are, yet that is still the icon for "save" even though you don't even really have to save like we used to. It's funny how it's endured.

Samantha (28:40):

Oh my god, you just reminded me. We did a time capsule, I think, in my eighth grade, sixth grade year, and I think I put in a floppy disk.

Bridget Todd (28:48):

Like blank ones?

Anney (28:48):

Really?

Samantha (28:50):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (28:52):

I have a lot of floppy disk memories. I remember, oh my god, if he's listening to this, he's going to kill me. My older brother, he had to do a class project, and, at the time we were fighting, and I remember he had it on a floppy disk that he left on the computer and I swapped it out with a blank one. I put his in my backpack. I put a blank one on the computer. So when he got to school he was like, "Wait, where's my project?"

Samantha (29:19):

Oh, that's mean. That's real petty.

Bridget Todd (29:25):

It was very petty. It was very petty. Oh well. If he's listening to this, I apologize. But you know your [inaudible 00:29:30] deserved it.

Samantha (29:32):

[crosstalk 00:29:32].

Anney (29:32):

[crosstalk 00:29:32] your side Bridget.

Bridget Todd (29:35):

Yeah, thank you.

Samantha (29:38):

I just remembered that because I knew they would be outdated by that point. I was right.

Bridget Todd (29:41):

You were right. You were like prophetic.

Samantha (29:44):

I know, right? I'm sure it cost a lot of money so I can't believe I did that.

Bridget Todd (29:47):

Oh they used to be hella expensive. A box of them was like $30.00.

Samantha (29:50):

Yeah. I'm trying remember, "Why?" Maybe I just put one. I just remember putting something to do with a floppy disk. I'm like, "I'm going to put this in here because it's going to make it..." Dumb.

Anney (29:59):

I love it.

Bridget Todd (29:59):

It's like, one of those things, you know how, I think some comedian has this line in his standup where when you're driving and you want someone to roll down their window, even though most cars no longer have the crank, that's the motion that you do to tell someone... Even though you're like, "Cars haven't really had this for a while, why am I doing this?" that's still the ingrained motion that you do.

Samantha (30:22):

Yeah. That's the thing. She created this in the 80s and it's still iconic and it's still used today. And even though I may not have known what a Mac was, it was definitely universally used.

Anney (30:35):

Right. That's funny to think about too because there's some technologies, like the floppy disk, that did just go by the wayside. That's one of my favorite things in Back to the Future II when they thought the fax machine was going to be the thing. But, you have a story in here about your copy machine, right?

Bridget Todd (30:52):

So she was initially going to have the copy function be a little illustration of a copy machine that you would drag and drop your file that you wanted to be duplicated on to the copier, but copy machines are complicated and difficult to render at that size. And so that didn't work. And then she got this idea to try an illustration of a cat in a mirror, which I feel like that really tells me a lot about how she was thinking about these illustrations. Using a cat looking into a mirror as a way to illustrate the copy functionality. I just find that to be a very interesting manifestation of what the copy function does. You know what I mean?

Anney (31:33):

Right.

Samantha (31:33):

Yes.

Bridget Todd (31:34):

Maybe because it started with a "C"? But I approve that. I want that now.

Anney (31:37):

I know, I wish that was the case. [inaudible 00:31:39] directionally gone. But I can just imagine. That would be iconic, if that is what it was. Today that'd be on shirts. The cat just staring into the mirror.

Bridget Todd (31:52):

Yeah, the copy cat.

Samantha (31:54):

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Anney (31:57):

I kind of get it, yeah. I love it. That's so good.

Bridget Todd (32:02):

That is a creative mind. Perhaps not the most intuitive... I think that what she ended up going with is much better, but I can sort of see her logic in what she was going for with a copy cat in the mirror.

Samantha (32:18):

Yes. It's so good.

Anney (32:19):

I'm good with it. I would have approved it immediately.

Anney (32:36):

So at the top you said that Kare's still alive today. What's she up to?

Bridget Todd (32:42):

So, that's my favorite thing about this story, is that, I feel so often when we're talking about somebody who had a great impact, we're talking about them after they have aged out of whatever they're doing, or they've passed away. Not Kare. Kare is still very much alive and very much involved in tech.

Bridget Todd (33:00):

So, today, she works at Pinterest, where you are probably familiar if you use Pinterest, with some of her current designs. She designed the image on Pinterest that is modeled after the pushpin that symbolizes pinning an item. So, again, that kind of idea of having the icon be a visualization of what the user is supposed to be doing. And, the spinning button that appears on Pinterest when you refresh. So, very much still a person involved in imagining what tech looks like today, the tech that we use all the time. If you use Pinterest, her designs are in your pocket, which I just love.

Bridget Todd (33:36):

You can also find her notebooks. Today they're part of the permanent collection at the New York and San Francisco Modern Art Museum. The one in New York is my favorite art museum on the planet. It's so cool. Cannot wait to get back there when COVID is over. And one was included in the recent London Design exhibit called California: Designing Freedom.

Bridget Todd (33:52):

So, yeah, she still is representing this past and present, and perhaps future, of design when it comes to tech. Still out there, still shaping how we conceptualize the tech that we use every day.

Anney (34:06):

I love that so much. I just realize that, if you look at movies or TV show, that's another application where it's not necessarily a real world application, but if you were a designer and you're designing something sci-fi, what will this look like in the future? What does this technology or button or whatever represent? And then being able to communicate that to audiences. So, yeah, there's a lot of applications here.

Bridget Todd (34:30):

Definitely.

Anney (34:33):

Did you say, Samantha, she has art you can still get?

Samantha (34:36):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (34:37):

Oh yes. She had a collection where some of the... Samantha, I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but if you go to TerraPrints.com you can find her limited edition prints. And they include little logos and things she designed. You can get the Sad Mac on a poster, or the time bomb on a t-shirt. Some of her stuff is really nice. I really wouldn't mind one of these blankets that have all these different icons on it that she designed. And, what's funny is that, when you go to TerraPrints.com they talk about how she was one of the original originators of what we think of today as emojis. I hadn't even really thought about that, that her designs is why... And I am emoji obsessed. Whoever texts me, get ready to get a million emojis. Yeah, just how fundamental that is in terms of how we think of representing things online.

Anney (35:29):

Yes. And that's another great example of what we were talking about earlier, where emojis filled a gap that was missing, right? And you had to kind of envision what are these emotions? What is this trying to convey? That is another example of something that's kind of artistic, but being in this very technical world.

Samantha (35:56):

Also, Anney, and I know this is what I read earlier, it has something that is related to your superpower. One of your useless superpowers, which is including fonts or typeface.

Anney (36:07):

Okay.

Samantha (36:09):

You can recognize.

Anney (36:09):

I wasn't sure which superpower we were discussing.

Samantha (36:13):

[crosstalk 00:36:13] emojis when I was calling you out. Which, by the way, you could be lying to me. You could just randomly naming a font and I'm just believing you.

Anney (36:21):

It's true.

Samantha (36:22):

Because Chicago was one of them. I know that was one of her first typefaces is what it's called. And then the emojis, is it Cairo? Is that how you say that? C-A-I-R-O.

Bridget Todd (36:32):

I think that's right.

Samantha (36:32):

But that's the blanket, right?

Bridget Todd (36:33):

Yeah.

Samantha (36:34):

She went even farther into the world of computer stuffs. I'm so official [inaudible 00:36:39]. I'm amazing. But the fact that she actually created typeface, actually created fonts, is an interesting thing, because I've always wondered, "Who does this?" And also, Anney, why do you know these? Could you recognize what Chicago looks like? Chicago 12? I want to test you know.

Anney (36:55):

So for the listeners who don't know this, I have a very useless superpower. It's not as good anymore because I used to edit video all the time. And I actually would, because a font does convey an emotion. It does help shape whatever-

Samantha (37:11):

Which is why everybody loves Comic Sans, right?

Anney (37:14):

Futura, that's what everybody loves. And so I can recognize a font. It is one of my most annoying... You get a little alcohol in me and I'll be like, "That's Futura. There's Nancy's Chalkboard." I apologize to anyone I've ever done that to.

Bridget Todd (37:31):

Do you have a favorite font?

Anney (37:32):

That's a good question, because I loved the ones that looked like people's handwriting. So I did really like Marker Felt one with a very little bit of drop shadow. Very little. Or I like Nancy's Chalkboard. I don't know if I would say those are my favorite, but they were ones I turned to a lot because I wanted those videos to feel very approachable, which is actually the stuff [inaudible 00:38:00]. So they're on YouTube. You can go look at all my chalk and marker-based fonts.

Bridget Todd (38:06):

I need to do this right away. I also love a good font. I'm not even someone who is technical in this way, but good design is really important. Bad design, I can't tell you how many times I've been on a restaurant website page where I'm like, "This is so infuriating! The font is terrible and this user experience is terrible! I don't even want to go to this restaurant any more!" Good design can really open some doors. And bad design can really close them. I'll just put it that way. It's what matters.

Anney (38:35):

Absolutely.

Samantha (38:36):

You are completely correct. But I did like that. I was like, "Oh, look, she did this and this." And then that blanket, I was like, "Oh, I love this blanket." It just has all those, essentially, emojis that's all over her blankets that she designed. I was like, "That is so cool." And then I thought about the fact that Anney loves talking about how she has a superpower.

Anney (38:54):

Yes.

Samantha (38:55):

So you're welcome for telling everyone your superpower.

Bridget Todd (38:59):

It's a good power.

Samantha (39:01):

Right?

Anney (39:01):

It's probably my most useless one, but also the safest one. I'm glad you [inaudible 00:39:05].

Samantha (39:07):

Wait, what?

Anney (39:08):

Okay. Silence.

Samantha (39:12):

I think I killed that conversation real good, y'all. You're welcome.

Anney (39:21):

Well, when it comes to Kare, Anney's icons, she's going to have... Her legacy is a lasting legacy.

Bridget Todd (39:28):

It is a lasting legacy. As I said, I think it's important to highlight what she did was important. I couldn't tell you whether or not personal computing would be the same if not for Kare. But, I know that she had an impact and I think it's important to recognize. And I also just think it's important that, again, underscore, that she did all of this as a non-technical person. She told the Smithsonian about her time at Apple: "I loved working on that project. I always felt so lucky for the opportunity to be a non-technical person in a software group. I was all about being able to collaborate with such creative, capable, and dedicated engineers." I think it's really awesome that she was holding it down on this group of engineers, as a non-technical woman doing her thing, and really building out a lasting, enduring legacy in a field where things don't often last and don't often endure in this way. So I think it's really important to recognize her work.

Anney (40:22):

I do too. And I think even looking back at the time when she was doing this and being a woman in this non-technical space, and creating these things that have lasted, it's just very very inspiring. And I'm glad that you brought this story to our attention, Bridget.

Bridget Todd (40:42):

Thank you for giving me the space to nerd out on this. Honestly, it truly is because I saw that badass picture of her on OldSchoolCool on Reddit. So, whoever put that on Reddit, thank you. Listeners, please, if you have not seen that picture, look it up. She is amazing.

Anney (40:58):

Yes, yes. It's so cool, just so cool.

Samantha (41:04):

Just goals. If I had goals, that would be one of them.

Anney (41:06):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (41:06):

Same.

Samantha (41:06):

Her picture.

Bridget Todd (41:10):

You can achieve this, Samantha. Now's the time.

Samantha (41:13):

I don't think so. I would fall out. There's so many levels of cool that I couldn't hit, and one of them would be actually sitting like that.

Bridget Todd (41:20):

Yeah, I'm worried for her back health. She's like really leaned back.

Anney (41:26):

Well, thanks as always for being here, Bridget. Where can the listeners find you?

Bridget Todd (41:31):

Well, if you want more nerding out on all things tech and the internet and things of that nature, you can definitely check out my podcast on iHeartRadio, called There Are No Girls on the Internet. We would love to have you there. And you can follow me on social media. I'm @BridgetMarie on Twitter, and @bridgetmarieindc on Instagram.

Samantha (41:49):

Yes. So go check out that podcast and follow Bridget if you don't already, listeners. And we can't wait to have you again, Bridget.

Bridget Todd (41:58):

Oh, I can't wait. I cannot wait. We'll talk Sex and the City, I bet. "And just like that..."

Samantha (42:06):

"And just like that..."

Bridget Todd (42:07):

Anney, you don't get that joke because you don't watch the show.

Anney (42:07):

I don't want to be left out of this conversation.

Bridget Todd (42:12):

"And I couldn't help but wonder..."

Samantha (42:13):

"I couldn't help but wonder..."

Anney (42:15):

All right. All right. I'm down to watch it. I'm just a little nervous, but I'm down to watch it.

Samantha (42:22):

[inaudible 00:42:22].

Anney (42:23):

I guess. Yes, it will be. It will be.

Anney (42:26):

And if you'd like to contact us, listeners, you can. Our email is stuffmediamomstuff@iheartmedia.com. You can find us on Instagram @stuffmomnevertoldyou or on Twitter @MomStuffPodcast. Thanks as always to our super producer, Christina.

Samantha (42:36):

Thank you, Christina.

Anney (42:37):

And thanks to you for listening.

Anney (42:39):

Stuff Mom Never Told You is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.