Bridget Todd (00:03):

You're listening to Disinformed, a miniseries from There Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd.

Bridget Todd (00:13):

Nobody likes talking about online harassment. When I first started the podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, I specifically wanted to talk about all the cool things that women, queer folks, black folks and other underrepresented voices are doing on the internet. And as much as I wanted to focus on the positive, the harassment we face online is difficult to ignore.

Bridget Todd (00:32):

Earlier this month, Chrissy Teigen left Twitter. This was kind of a big deal. She's someone who was once called the Mayor of Twitter because she's such a prolific user. She spoke at Twitter headquarters for a company event, and on Instagram, she made it clear that she didn't blame Twitter for feeling like she had to leave the platform. She said that Twitter staff had actually reached out and worked with her and her team to deal with the barrage of harassment she faces, and I'm sure they did. Chrissy Teigen is rich and famous and well-connected, but what about the rest of us who aren't?

Bridget Todd (01:02):

We've seen a wave of online harassment come for women journalists, too. On Fox News, Tucker Carlson did two nights of segments pretty much just making fun of New York Times Internet Culture reporter, Taylor Lorenz, for, as he put it, "Pretending to be oppressed," after she tweeted, "For International Women's Day, please consider supporting women enduring online harassment."

Bridget Todd (01:23):

After Times reporter, Rachel Abrams, did a report on the conservative news network OAN, the network retaliated by putting her personal cell phone number on the air and encouraging viewers to contact her, a pretty obvious attempt at inciting harassment. And it's not just people with public profiles. Harassment is just a reality when you're a marginalized person who puts their opinion or words online. If you're a woman or a person of color or a queer person who's listening, you've probably already dealt with it. I know I've dealt with it, and it's awkward to talk about, but writer Lyz Lenz says that we need to start talking about it.

Bridget Todd (01:57):

In her piece called When the Mob Came For Me, she details what she's learned from dealing with waves of intense harassment, for daring to be a woman with opinions online. Lyz wants people to know that becoming the target of an online harassment campaign can happen to anyone, so it's important to have a plan if it does.

Bridget Todd (02:13):

When I started doing this show, I initially purposely did not focus on harassment because I was like, "I want to write a... or do a thing about the internet and women where it's not centered around our negative experiences." But as that went on, it was becoming something that it felt like I was purposely ignoring, even though it's something that we all experience. And so, I read your piece, When a Mob Came For Me, and you were writing about your first experiences with online harassment, and I was wondering if you could sort of talk us through what happened.

Lyz Lenz (02:45):

You know, I really identify with your journey, talking about harassment because I don't really like to talk about my harassment. I find that a couple of things happen when you do talk about your harassment. People either tell you you're whining and it's not that bad, or they are like, "Well, what'd you do to deserve it?" Or the worst thing is when they're like, "And then what happened?" And you're like, "Oh, God." And then they're like, "What kind of bomb threats did you get?" And then you're like, "Um, okay, weirdos." I don't know, it never feels like there's a great way to have the conversation. But like you, I have been seeing... We are coming out of a year where I think especially marginalized journalists are exhausted. I know a handful of journalists who have quit, are taking breaks, because just the pressures of pandemic, the intense harassment that they've received and no breaks and everything. It just felt like there was a moment where I was like, "We need to talk about this. We need to have a conversation."

Lyz Lenz (03:59):

And so, you're right. I wrote this thing that talked about my experiences. And I just want to be very clear at the outset, there's a different between criticism and harassment. Telling me I'm wrong or that you hate my article, that's okay. I don't consider that harassment. What I consider harassment is calling me horrible names, telling me you want my kids to die, telling me you want me to die, telling me you're going to bomb my house or sending me pictures of Pepe the Frog raping me. That's what I consider harassment. And I feel like that's pretty... I feel like there's a pretty clear line between the two. I don't know why it's hard to have that conversation.

Lyz Lenz (04:44):

So, anyway, now to finally answer your question. Yes, in 2016, I was writing about my experiences. I live in Iowa. Every four years I write about the caucuses in some capacity and that year, 2016, I was writing about the caucuses for Vice and I was live tweeting, because that's a thing that journalists do. And I was like, "I'm going to do it." And I only had a couple thousand followers and they were all following me because I'd had a pretty successful mom blog for a while, not super famous but solid. I'd say third tier college, kind of. Mom blog. It's like what you settle for when you don't get into Harvard.

Lyz Lenz (05:27):

I started tweeting my experience caucusing and that year, as we all know, it was Hillary versus Bernie.

Bridget Todd (05:37):

If you were on political pockets of social media back then, you probably recall that the 2016 presidential election could feel like a pretty polarizing time to be online. There were palpable tensions between Bernie Sanders supporters and Hillary Clinton supporters. It could really feel difficult to escape.

Lyz Lenz (05:53):

And I have no political problems with Bernie Sanders, but a supporter of his yelled at me during the caucuses. And this is Iowa, we don't yell at each other. We keep it inside and then talk shit about you behind your back. And so, it was extremely aggressive, and it was so shocking to me that I was live tweeting it and he had said something like, "You're voting with your vagina." And I quipped back, and it wasn't even that creative. I think somebody else had said it better before, but I was like, "Yeah, America has been voting with its dick for 240 years, like come on man." And I was like, "Chill out." And I tweeted that and it got picked up and used as fodder in the Bernie/Hillary wars and I was getting... I've deleted it since then and I encourage everybody to regularly delete their tweets. But it's got thousands and thousands of retweets and likes. They were faves, stars, then. It was back in the olden days.

Lyz Lenz (07:05):

And that's when I started... I got people in my DM's. I got emails, people being like, "We're going to call CPS on you to have your kids taken away." And I'm not going to attribute this to one side or the other, I think there's just trolls out in the world and they like to harass people. But yeah, and that's when it was like... It took things... I had gotten criticism before, where it's like, "Look at this dumb bitch." But I hadn't gotten, "Now your kids are going to be taken away." And in 2016, so that's when my career as a writer was really starting to take off and I was writing longer form pieces and it just became a situation where every once in a while, I'd get a weird letter.

Bridget Todd (07:58):

Like a snail mail at your home?

Lyz Lenz (08:02):

Yes. And the most disturbing one was just five pages, white printer pages and somebody had hand written our Bible verses on that. And it was just all the verses about repent and you're going to hell. I grew up evangelical. You can't convert me. Come on. I've already memorized all those Bible verses in a [inaudible 00:08:28]. I was in Bible quiz. You can't out Bible me. But also, it was chilling. And I remember opening the enveloped and being like... You know, scary music in the background. And stuff like that would trickle and trickle and trickle.

Lyz Lenz (08:47):

And then, finally, a couple things started to happen. And again, I don't want to be like, "Oh, this one thing happened," because I think once you're on a radar, then it just comes back and comes back.

Bridget Todd (09:04):

As Lyz's public profile grew as she published bigger and bigger stories, so did the level of harassment she faced.

Lyz Lenz (09:10):

A couple things started to happen around 2018, 2019, as I wrote some more high profile pieces. And then I finally wrote a profile of Tucker Carlson, which is what a lot of people know me for. I wrote it for the Columbia Journalism Review. And after that, it sparked a whole year of just waves. I liken it to a tide, it would flow in and flow out, but there would always be a little trickle. So basically, 2018, 2019, the wave is out right now, fingers crossed.

Bridget Todd (09:53):

Good.

Lyz Lenz (09:53):

But the tide's out. It sparked off this whole harassment where my phone was blowing up. I used to use a Google number that got doxxed. I was getting... It's hard to explain, but there's this troll community thing where they used to use Pepe, now they use this picture of a giant Bugs Bunny and they call it Big Chungus. It's just dumb. And so I'd just get pictures and pictures of that. I was also getting pictures of Pepe the Frog raping me, photoshopped, and it was just like, "We're coming for you." It never ended because I think in that time I published, I started publishing some bigger pieces. I published a story that got a lot of attention about my divorce, food in my divorce and it was titled, I'm Never Cooking for a Man Again. Titles are always a little tongue in cheek, but it was just an exploration of food and emotional labor and marriage and oh my God, that went super viral and just got a shit ton of shit.

Bridget Todd (11:14):

I've actually read it.

Lyz Lenz (11:14):

Thank you.

Bridget Todd (11:15):

It's so touching and personal and relatable. And it's funny to me that that title was... I mean, having read the piece, it makes so much sense, but I could see how that title would be enraging for people who were already predisposed to think of you in this negative light.

Lyz Lenz (11:35):

But that's the troll thing, just take things at headline value and then use that to crap on people. And then I also published a profile of Richard Spencer's divorce, the Nazi. That didn't help. Then I moderate, in 2019, I moderated a presidential forum. I'll say this about the forum, is we had... there were three moderators. I was just one of them. And they were both, the other two moderators, lovely people, both marginalized and identify as queer in their own ways. And all of the questions we had co-written together and many organizations had vetted. And so, I was really just reading off of a prompter.

Bridget Todd (12:32):

Here is Lyz grilling Biden at the forum.

Lyz Lenz (12:34):

You've also praised vice president, Mike Pence, as a decent guy.

Speaker 3 (12:50):

You're a lovely person.

Lyz Lenz (12:50):

Just asking the questions that people want to know.

Lyz Lenz (12:54):

That's also when Joe Biden called me a real sweetheart, because I pushed him on some of the criminalization bills that had put more queer people in jail. It's just kind of how it happened. Joe, [inaudible 00:13:08], because he was like, "That's not true," and I was like, "Well, it is, so could you just talk about it." And then as we were walking off the stage he was like, "You're a real sweetheart," and I was like, I can't believe that Biden's [inaudible 00:13:24] was snotty to me.

Bridget Todd (13:25):

For doing your job as the moderator.

Lyz Lenz (13:29):

Right, and that's the whole thing, is I ask questions and I follow up and say, "Please answer the question." Yes but... And you know, the power imbalance. But after that, I mean, that also kicked off a huge intense wave and that's when I started getting bomb threats. And one of the other moderators was talking to me the other day and after my piece on harassment had published, and he was like, "You know, I never received the same kind of harassment that you did, even though we moderated the same forum." He was like, "It's just because you're on a radar."

Bridget Todd (14:10):

Let's take a quick break. And we're back. Lyz says that once you're on the radar of a network of harassers online, anything that you say can be used against you. For her, it was a silly joke that she had made about online dating after a night out with friends. And with that kind of threat hanging over you, it can feel like it's not worth it to show up as your full self online, because someone, somewhere, could inevitably take what ever thing you're saying out of context to harass you.

Lyz Lenz (14:46):

The thing that they always cling to is this one joke I made. It was, I had said... And this happened but it I was just joking about it. I was like, "A man unmatched with me after I told him I was a journalist, you know, what's he hiding?" You know, time [inaudible 00:15:08]. And it's not even that funny. I think it was a joke I tweeted at 11pm after I'd had drinks with friends. And I was like, "Oh, this is funny." You know what I mean? It's not even. It's just like, "Okay Lyz, ha ha ha." But they screenshot that and every once in a while, it'll just come back up and people will be like, "Did you do this? Did you dox an innocent man?" And I'll be like, "I don't even remember his name, but yes, that is my joke. Thank you. It's not that funny." But that's the thing that comes back up more often than anything else. It's weird. I don't know.

Bridget Todd (15:49):

It's so interesting how that one harmless joke that is not... I mean, I've seen that screenshot. I can only imagine what it's like for you being like, "Oh, they're holding this silly joke I made back up. I get it. Will never go away."

Lyz Lenz (16:04):

It's just, I just deserve better enemies. I'm always like, I have made, first of all... First of all, I've made way worse jokes, way worse. Do you hear how I'm talking? I say dumb shit all the time, just constantly. Literally fight me on literally any other dumb thing I've said. And then they all expect me to be ashamed of it. They're like, "Did you say this?" And I'm like, "I sure did." And they're like, "Did you dox a man?" And I'm like, "I sure didn't because it's a joke, y'all." And it's funny because that was one of the things that I... A lot of this troll-y culture is like, "The liberals can't take a joke, that's why we're going to make fun of them and taunt them," and it's really nasty way. It's like a general of men who never learned that they weren't funny.

Bridget Todd (17:10):

Oh God, yes.

Lyz Lenz (17:11):

Yeah, and it's just like, these are not jokes. I'm friends with the comedian Josh [Comleman 00:17:19] and I was like, "You should perform a service where people can ask you, 'Is this a joke or not?'" Like a five year old, "Is this a joke?" "Nope, sorry, that's just a fart sound, it's not a joke." "Is this a joke?" "No, you just made a fat joke. You're just making a comment about somebody's weight, not a joke."

Bridget Todd (17:40):

Not a joke.

Lyz Lenz (17:41):

Not a joke, just some fat phobia.

Bridget Todd (17:44):

Even that joke does illustrate how... I guess I feel that on Twitter especially, we've gotten to a point where it's... We're not able to have actual conversations or even just communicate because everything is so weaponized and taken in bad faith. What you tweeted was obviously just a joke, you're kidding around, but there's this assumption that anything that you say... I just feel that Twitter is so charged. Once you're on someone's radar, they're looking for anything. Anything that you say can be used to be like, "See, she's the worst."

Lyz Lenz (18:19):

Yeah, it's so funny because that thing I wrote about online mobs, part of it was an interview with the journalist and author Talia Laven, who helped me through that year of harassment and has really just... because she's experienced it. She wrote this book, Cultural Warlords, where she digs in to these communities, online communities of hate. And so, the funny thing about it, and in that interview, she's very clear. She's very good at parsing the nuance of what's harassment and what's criticism, because again, people are allowed to criticize. And I'm going to make mistakes and people are allowed to call out those mistakes. And I never want to be nailing myself to a cross just because maybe I fucked up a column. And I'm going to, they're not all going to be winners. I'm going to fail.

Lyz Lenz (19:24):

And she does a really good job pointing out people saying that Andrew Cuomo harasses them sexually, that's not an online mob. That's just people talking about their experiences and saying, "This isn't okay." An online mob is putting a picture of somebody's house inside of cross hairs and saying, "I'm building pipe bombs." That's the difference. But that interview was quote tweeted... Somebody quote tweeted it. Glenn Greenwald quote tweeted it and was like, "Oh, look at these..." He was basically like, "Look at these people that don't know the difference between harassment and criticism." And was like, "If you were functionally literate, you would have read it and know that we have three paragraphs parsing out that nuance," but it's like what you were saying, it's just bad faith. And once you're on somebody's radar, and they don't like you, everything that you do, they're just going to hate.

Bridget Todd (20:35):

Yeah, it sucks. I mean, what does that feel like for you? What does it feel like to be facing that kind of a charged online environment just to do your job every day?

Lyz Lenz (20:47):

It was hard in the beginning. There's something my therapist likes to remind me of, is that you level up, you know what I mean? As that as you go through life and as you become more successful, you kind of have these experiences like you have to grow into. And so yes, that first year of intense harassment was a really hard... it felt like being in a tunnel. Just like everything was closing in all around me. And I don't live in a big... well, it's the second largest city in Iowa, people are always like, "It's the big city." Yes, it's the big city if you're from Fairfield or something, but it's 300,000 people. It's not that big. And something that has happened too, is I get emails from people in town. Or don't do this to people by the way, but people like to make me aware when other people in town are discussing me on Facebook. And I'm like, "Please don't," because then it makes me scared to go to the grocery store.

Lyz Lenz (22:05):

But yes, people have to... Yeah, I remember very specifically one woman in town who's pretty high profile, who had a whole Facebook post discussing my body and how I looked as I moderated that forum. Calling me showy and trashy and I was just trying to flaunt myself and implying that I was a giant slut. I was wearing... It doesn't matter what I was wearing, but I was wearing just a standard newscaster dress. It was bright yellow because I can wear yellow. I'm one of the few white people who can do it.

Bridget Todd (22:47):

It's a tough color to pull off.

Lyz Lenz (22:48):

It's a tough color to pull... And it's my one skill, and y'all can just eat it. And that kind of stuff, it makes you feel like you can't be anonymous. I'll go for runs and people will honk at me and it's like, well, is that my friend? Or is that a car full of dudes that are... You don't know and it's scary. Or you go to the grocery store and people will be like, "Oh, are you the writer?" And you're like, "Maybe. Are you the one that participated in talking about what a slut I was?"

Lyz Lenz (23:27):

And most people are nice. And most people are good, actually, and most people are generous. I think this. I believe this. But when you're in that harassment zone and especially when things are really intense, it's usually over, the intensity is over by a day, two days. But anyway, it's usually only intense for a couple days but it feels like you're in a tunnel. It feels like you can turn everything off. You can turn your phone off. You can turn your internet off. And I do recommend that when things are bad, just log off, don't tweet through it. Just log off. You can't win, stay away, have some friends monitor it for you just to let you know if there's anything.

Lyz Lenz (24:10):

But even if that's happening, you don't know because if they're targeting where you live or you're like, "What's safe?" If the door knocks, you're like, "What is that?" In the most intense times, I was seeing posts like, "I live 30 minutes from her town, should I go there?" What?

Bridget Todd (24:33):

Terrifying.

Lyz Lenz (24:34):

It is terrifying. And I am a single mom. I have two kids and now I have two dogs, but it's not an accident that I have two dogs. It's directly related to some of my fears about living alone and being a target of harassment. And yes, and so, it feels like being in a tunnel. One of the things I did in the before times when the harassment would get bad, is I would just log off, tell me friends, "Don't... Just take my Twitter password, change it for a while, do all this." And then I would go, Marcus Theaters, don't get mad at me, but I sneak little bottles of that cheap Sutter Home wine in and then get a big popcorn and then just sit in a movie theater. So it just was like I'm safe because nobody knows me. Nobody can see me. Nobody knows I'm seeing this movie. And yeah, we're just going to go to a bar and sit outside or whatever. But yes, it feels like being in a tunnel.

Bridget Todd (25:44):

Wow. People might be thinking, "Oh, well I don't write about politics," or, "I'm not X, Y, Z kind of person so this could never happen to me," but something that you write in your piece that I think is important to pull out. You write, "People want to attribute this hate to one thing, one moment or one time that I messed up. One story I filed. I think people do that because they want to feel safe. They want to think it will never happen to them. If you can blame me, somehow, then you can distance yourself from it all." And that one nugget I think is so important because I do think there probably are people right now who are listening to you speak and they're like, "Oh, well that will never happen to me because I'm..." Insert thing here. And I think that was a real change for me, was when I realized, getting on the radar of people who want to make your life miserable online and offline as well, it's not one thing you did.

Bridget Todd (26:35):

And so, it's important for everyone to understand that, that this could be any of us.

Lyz Lenz (26:41):

I was randomly just talking to somebody for a story I wrote last year, and he was telling me how his son, who is a black teenage boy in town, was just getting that same kind of hate because he just posted a picture of himself with his girlfriend. And somehow a troll army found that. He just existed. Just existed. And it just waves and waves and waves and since posting that, I've heard from people who are like, "I'm a school board member, and one time I spoke up about guns in school." I think anti-gun activists get a lot of this kind of harassment, but it's just like, you can be a school board member. Somebody reached out to me to tell me that when they were a teen, they started a LGBTQ club in their high school, this was a couple years ago, and got targeted. And they're still targeted. And they're just a human, not high profile, probably not even on Twitter, I didn't ask. But you just existed and you got this kind of hate.

Lyz Lenz (28:03):

Yes, you don't have to be high profile and obnoxious, like me. I'm not that high profile, let's not get excited. But yes, you just have to exist in a way that people don't like. Trans people get this kind of hate, and that was actually one of the motivating reasons where I really wanted to talk about it, because I have friends who are trans who are getting a lot of this harassment just for existing. I made the conscious decision not to interview one of them because I didn't want to put more of a target on their back. But yeah, just living your life and being happy, if you do so and you get on the radar, that's it, it's over.

Lyz Lenz (28:56):

There's a journalist I'm messaging right now who's maybe 400 followers. She writes about sports but because she's a woman who writes about sports, she's like, "I've been getting some really intense harassment."

Bridget Todd (29:12):

I think that's a good point, that it seems to be always people who are marginalized. And so, if you're a women, a women of color, LGBTQ, it seems like it's much worse for us when we put our opinions out there. I noticed, this was one of the reasons where I was like, "I have to talk about harassment because it's getting to be too much." You mentioned Glenn Greenwald. A few weeks ago, there was a USA Today piece where a intern had published her first byline, her name is Brenna Smith, and it was a co-byline with another author, Will Carless, who is a white man. And it was interesting to me. So, Glenn Greenwald re-tweeted it and was like, "I hope you're..." Some mean tweet.

Lyz Lenz (29:54):

It was to his over a million followers.

Bridget Todd (29:57):

Correct.

Lyz Lenz (29:57):

It's not like his followers are not the most generous people on the internet. If you're making the conscious decision to follow him as a person and his personal brand is not kindness, generosity and light.

Bridget Todd (30:15):

More after a quick break. Let's get right back into it. We talk a lot about free speech online, what it is and who has it, but we need to make room to talk about what happens when marginalized voices are pushed off of social media because the harassment has gotten so bad. And this is ultimately the point of this kind of harassment, to make people feel like speaking up and putting their opinions out there is just ultimately not worth it. To make women and other marginalized voices shut up and just stop talking. The silencing effect it has can be real. And this is something that Lyz wants men to understand.

Lyz Lenz (30:59):

I do not think these men need to stop talking. I mean, I would like it if they talked less, but that's my own personal decision. It has no reflection on the constitution or laws that I would like to see changed. But nobody's saying, "You can't talk." But what they are saying is, there is a difference between when you talk and when I talk. When you talk, maybe people quote tweet you and tell you you're a potato brain. Fine. When I talk, people tell me they're going to kill my kids. And that's the difference. And there is a silencing effect and that's the point. The point is the silencing effect. The point is the fear. The point is to make you look over your shoulder, to make you think twice before you have an opinion and it's that culture of silence and that culture of fear that is bred and I know... I know women who are afraid of doing things, of poking their heads out. I never learn. There's something deeply wrong with me, so it actually makes me bolder. It makes me be like, "No, you don't get to dictate the terms on which I live my life and on how I write."

Lyz Lenz (32:19):

I'm not saying there's a wrong way to be, you have to live the life that feels good and safe to you, so I'm not... but it makes me sad because I do know there are voices we do not hear because of this fear. And that's the silencing and that's the thing we need to be talking about. And that's the thing that I think is interesting, that who gets defended and who gets attacked. You're right, quote tweeting the intern and telling them they did a bad job, when it's obvious it was probably just assigned. It was a co-byline with another man. And if you had a problem with the piece, then don't attack... Just say, "I have a problem with this piece. I have a problem." Don't tell that person they're bad at their... There is a line. And I actually think that being harassed makes me a little bit more of an empathetic person because it is tempting for everybody to think of a celebrity or somebody who's more high profile, not as a person. You're like, "Oh, well, you're just an image so now I'm going to just talk about how you look on the internet."

Lyz Lenz (33:28):

But it does make me think twice about how I talked about people and how I criticize things because there is a difference and there is a line. And I think, too, if you're high profile enough you should know that by now, and you should use your power for good, not evil. I always try to think I punch up, like hold power accountable. That's another thing I think [inaudible 00:33:57] she's always like, "Know your power so that you don't abuse your power."

Bridget Todd (34:01):

That's so important.

Lyz Lenz (34:03):

Yeah, she's like, "Who are you going to fight? And how are you going to fight it?" She's like, "You need to be very conscious of those things so that you don't hurt anybody."

Bridget Todd (34:15):

You talked about the role that Talia, who I love, played when you were harassed. And that it wasn't just, "Keep your head up, girl." It was, "Here's what you need to know." So I wonder, I saw your tweet about things that you thought, that anybody who was on Twitter should do to make sure that they are protecting themselves from being targeted by this harassment. Can you tell us a bit about what you would suggest people do to keep themselves safe?

Lyz Lenz (34:40):

Yes. Very practical advice, I'm a practical mid-western mom, so I like practical advice. So, here's I think number one. A lot of people may not know this, but there are websites, hundreds of websites across the internet that scrub your data and then sell it to anybody who's willing to pay for it, and that's how you basically... That's the number one way people get doxxed. There are services that will scrub that data off the internet for you. And one of the services that I have used, that Talia recommended to me, I think it was Talia. It was either that or it was Christopher [Methias 00:35:20], who's an incredible reporter who reports on extremism. One of them told me, very early on, use Delete Me. This is not a commercial, I don't get money from them, although the tweet did so well they... now, if you use the promo code LYZL-

Bridget Todd (35:38):

Shit, drop the promo code, yes.

Lyz Lenz (35:40):

[crosstalk 00:35:40] promo code. By the way, I don't want to brag, but I'm a promo code, so I just living that promo code life. Super famous. I tell me kids, I'm like, "I'm a promo code. Treat me with respect." And they're like, "We're thirsty. We just want some water. Why are you talking like that?" But yes, Delete Me is a great service. There's other ones out there. Delete Me is the one I've been using for years. There is a promo code for 20% off, it's a significant amount of money, LYZL, if you use it. And then other things too, if you have kids, get all their pictures off the internet now. Just do it. Scrub your Facebook, there are services out there, none of them are super great so there's not one I really could recommend, I just Google around. Scrub your Facebook. A lot of TV news stations have their newscasters have two Facebook's, your private one and your public one. Consider that if you like to use Facebook. I think Facebook is necessary for journalists, especially if you report on your own community, you kind of need to see what's going on. But if you have the luxury of deleting Facebook, just delete it.

Lyz Lenz (37:03):

That thing with Instagram is... I have a private one and a public one now. I recommend that, or just keeping your Instagram private because you don't want people finding pictures of you and photos, you know what I mean? And being like, "Oh, she went to..." Everything will be taken in bad faith and you never know the thing that people are going to object to, like my stupid joke. I say delete your tweets. It might feel sad, but do it. Just delete your tweets pretty regularly. Tweetdelete.net, it's a free service, you can just start auto deleting. Those are some pretty practical things you can do that it won't stop harassment, but it will protect you from people knowing where you live, for people knowing the faces of your children or your other loved ones.

Lyz Lenz (38:06):

When I wrote about Richard Spencer, Hugh Anon, you know that chum bucket of YouTube shows where he was saying... the last name that I use is my married last name, even though I'm divorced now. I just like... all our last names are the same, it's just too exhausting to go back. But he was using my maiden name and my last name, and I started worrying about my parents. I was like, "Oh God, now they're going to find my parents." It just makes it harder for people to find that kind of stuff. And usually, if they can't find it pretty easily, then it just goes away after a couple hours. In most cases, it will go away after a couple hours.

Lyz Lenz (38:51):

But there is something my agent said the last time I was going through some intense harassment, is she's like, "This happens. If you are successful, if you are good at your job," she represents a lot of female journalists, and she's like, "It never gets easier, so just find ways, find tools, find people to help you. Good friends." Because the impulse is to always feel like, "Oh, did I screw up?" Especially if you're not a narcissist, you're like, "Oh, well I must be doing something to deserve this." Nine times out of 10, you didn't. Nobody deserves to get death threats. Nobody deserves that kind of stuff. No one.

Lyz Lenz (39:37):

But nine times out of 10, you didn't do anything wrong. But have friends in your life who would tell you, "Yeah, that was an offensive joke. You screwed up. Delete it." And go dark for a while. Just get people in your life who can help you and reach out. If you're in a really... going through some harassment and you don't know how to handle it, reach out. My DM's are open. Sometimes I close them but they're open now. Reach out to other journalists. And that's another thing, too, is if you see somebody going through something like that, reaching out to them is really... just saying, "Hey, I see you. I see that this is happening. I'm so sorry." Or just, "I'm here for you, I like you." That's good enough.

Lyz Lenz (40:33):

Even if you're like, "Well, the article you wrote did kind of suck." Nobody deserves death threats. Nobody deserves death threats. And yes, and so those are some practical things, I think.

Bridget Todd (40:46):

As much as I hate seeing anybody be going through targeted harassment on social media, something that I have been really proud to see lately is that one, how many individual other journalists are like, "We support you." That community response, I think, is beautiful. And then two, something I think is really important is the institutional response. And so, when someone is harassed, when their outlet puts out a statement that is like, "We support the good work of this journalist." Because I think for a long time, if someone was being harassed, they would be calling the outlet they work for and maybe they would be fired. They would be like, "Oh, we want to cut ties." Maybe they would not stand by them. I'm heartened to see situations where your NBCs or ABCs put out statements standing up for their reporters.

Lyz Lenz (41:33):

Yeah, and I will say, I have had institutions throw me under the bus, and I have had institutions stick up for me. I will say, the Columbia Journalism Review has been a staunch supporter of my work and I think that Kyle Pope, over there, has been amazing in the harassment that I have received. For him, I have profiled Alan Dershowitz, Tucker Carlson, Chris Cillizza, Seth Abramson and if you think that there wasn't pushback on those articles, you're wrong. Gretchen Carlson, that was a weird one. And every single time they have stood by. First of all, institutionally, they provide rigorous fact checking so that everything would be air tight. And then stood by me through the waves because they... I don't know, I've never been like, "Kyle, why have you done it?" But I think it's because they know and they value good work and yes, and so, it is encouraging to see when institutions get it right. I hate it when institutions get it wrong, but there are some good examples of things if we focus on the positive.

Lyz Lenz (42:54):

And I think that knowing that your institution has your back makes you a better journalist, makes you better at your job. I'm more willing to say bolder things, or to write bigger stories for them because I know that I can trust them. I know that they'll have a lawyer ready and they'll defend me and they'll be proud of me.

Bridget Todd (43:20):

Media companies and outlets are starting to catch up. When journalists like Taylor Lorenz and were harassed online for doing their jobs, their outlets put out statements sticking up for them. And some outlets have gone even further. Last week, the sport site Defector Media, announced a new policy that would offer support to journalists if they found themselves at the center of a harassment campaign, including a subscription to Delete Me, safe housing for them and their families should their homes become unsafe, and assigning someone to temporarily manage their social media accounts. Not only is this a good way to support staff, but it just acknowledges that online harassment is a real thing that staff might need to deal with.

Bridget Todd (43:57):

Instead of just pretending that it's something just happening online, it acknowledges the reality that online harassment can deeply impact our real world, our real work and real lives. And, if people are marginalized, the kind of harassment they face will be worse.

Lyz Lenz (44:13):

You know, talking with other men, and men get this kind of harassment too, but I was talking with another writer just the other day about this, and he was like, "Yeah, I've gone through harassment cycles before, but I don't think they inspire in my the fear that they inspire in you, because you're already afraid to walk alone at night. These are already fears that you have. They get compounded by your fears online. And this is not all in your head." Fear is a gift, read The Gift of Fear, everybody read The Gift of Fear, it's a great book, it teaches you to trust yourself, trust your gut. I teach that to my daughter. I'm like, "Trust your gut. If something feels weird, if an adult feels weird, get away from them." And sometimes she'll be like, "You feel weird." [inaudible 00:45:06] Not the gift of fear, but fine, "Go to your room."

Lyz Lenz (45:09):

But yes, it compounds the already precarious situation of existing in the world, which is so much harder for marginalized people. And it's not in your head. This racism and homophobia, it's institutionalized and so yes, so it is different, definitely. And it is encouraging when you do find places that support you. And they're just doing their jobs, to say, "We have an employee and they did this story and we're fine with it." But just, I think, because we've all just been so railroaded by capitalism, that when it does its job, we're like, "Thanks mom, thanks dad."

Bridget Todd (46:05):

Yes. Our standards are very low.

Lyz Lenz (46:07):

They are so low. It's like, "Oh, you didn't toss me out the trash. Great, thank you." But no, I do think CJR has supported me and my work in some really powerful ways and I don't think that that's nothing, and I don't think it's a mistake that some of my best work, I've written for them. And so, it makes good business sense to treat your employees well.

Bridget Todd (46:37):

What is your advice to under represented people, women, people of color, who want to put their opinions out into the world? Whether as a writer, like yourself, or just as a social media user, but are understandably scared.

Lyz Lenz (46:52):

Yeah, I say, obviously you need to live the life that you're happiest with. So, I don't think that I can tell you what that looks like, nobody can, but if you're scared, yeah, think about that. Do the work. But there are some simple practical steps you can take now, even if you're just like, "I'm not famous, nobody cares about what I say, who cares?" Live like you're going to be famous. Start leveling up and start taking care of your shit now. Scrub your stuff. Lock down your Instagram's. Figure that shit out. Do whatever you need to do with Facebook, which is a nightmare, and start doing that now, before it gets bad. And then I think that that gives you a place of strength from which to operate. And then have a game plan. I'm a person who loves a plan, and having a plan for, "Okay, if this does happen, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to log off. I'm going to have this friend do this. I'm going to have this friend... I've had friends monitor my email before, just because I sign out, no notifications, can you handle it?"

Lyz Lenz (48:14):

And have those plans in place, I think it gives you a position of strength to operate from. And by the way, here's another tip, if we're talking about writing. Only write for editors that have your back. And you'll know. Do not write for an editor who is going to let you publish something shitty. I used to work as an editor for a literary magazine and there were times when I would be reading an essay that was otherwise lovely, but had one or two sentences in it that might be fat shaming, might be a little bit not great. And my comment to the author was always, "We're taking this out because it brings down the quality of the piece and your writing." But there are websites, XO Jane used to do this, that would take people's worst thoughts and impulses, put them online, and then they'd become targets and then they'd be like, "Why did that happen to me?" It's like, you wrote something terrible in a bad way.

Lyz Lenz (49:27):

And not to say, once again, people don't deserve death threats, but... And I do think that was the internet in the early oughts, a little bit. I feel like people have... most editors will have your back. But don't write for editors who are going to throw you under the bus, who are going to exploit your marginalized identity for clicks. Be in charge of yourself and your representation. Don't be afraid to walk away from stories if you get a bad vibe, or editors if you get a bad vibe. It's fine. I've done it a couple of times just because I'm like, "I respect you but I feel like we're not vibing on this piece and it's okay to walk away from it." Things like that.

Lyz Lenz (50:12):

I also just never advocate anybody living a life of fear. And so, if you're in that place, if you feel like all you're doing is operating from a place of fear, you're not living your best life. So, what do you need to do to not be there? Does it mean getting of Twitter? You can have a life not online. It's possible. Lots of people have wonderful writing careers and are not on the internet. People exist not on the internet. Things happen not on the internet. So, find the life that you need to live and lead and don't live in a place of fear. Please, nobody wants that for you. And don't be afraid to reach out to other people. Find your community and find the people who love you and want to see you succeed and really lean on them.

Bridget Todd (51:03):

That's beautiful. Where can folks keep up with all the amazing stuff that you're doing?

Lyz Lenz (51:11):

Like a cancel culture warrior, I also have a newsletter. It's just lyz.substack.com. Lyz.substack.com, and it's called Men Yell at Me. They do. People are like, "Why do you call it?" I'm like, "I don't know. Why do they yell? Don't ask me." But that's my newsletter, so I also have a Twitter. It's @lyzl. I also have a website, lyzlenz.com and you can find me all of those places.

Bridget Todd (51:51):

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech? Or just want to say hi? We'd love to hear from you at hello@tangoti.com. Disinformed is brought to you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.