Bridget Todd (00:03):

You're listening to Disinformed a mini series from There Are No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. You might know attorney Rabia Chaudry from her role in the case of Adnan Syed. Adnan was convicted of first degree murder for the death of Hae Min Lee, a high school student in Baltimore who was last seen on January 13th, 1999. Lee's family remains convinced of Adnan's guilt, but he maintains his innocence and Rabia has been fighting to exonerate him. She brought his story to investigative journalist, Sarah Koenig, which became the hit true crime podcast serial. Rabia now hosts her own true crime podcasts on iHeartRadio called Undisclosed, where she and her co-host who are also lawyers explore wrongful convictions. Now, even though there is literally hundreds of thousands of podcasts out there, the podcast community can be kind of small. We see each other at events and conferences, and right now Rabia is facing a coordinated harassment campaign from another podcaster. Now, talking about this kind of online harassment is tricky and it's so easy to do it irresponsibly.

Bridget Todd (01:12):

When we talk about harassment, we're often centering the harasser and their tactics. The experience of the person who has been harassed, how they're feeling and how it shapes their work and their perspective can often go overlooked or not mentioned at all. So I don't wanna do that. And honestly, the person harassing Rabia does not need a bigger spotlight. But I do need to tell you the broad strokes of what's going on to make clear the full weight of how harassment can impact our real lives. I believe Rabia is at the center of a dangerous, coordinated harassment campaign being orchestrated by Mike Boudet, the host of Sword and Scale, a popular and successful true crime podcast. On his website, Mike sells merchandise with the slogan, Adnan did it, a reference to Rabia's relationship with Adnan. He's encouraged his followers to show up at her public speaking events, stuff that it's just super scary, stuff that makes me concerned for Rabia's actual safety.

Bridget Todd (02:07):

If you check out the verified Twitter page for Sword and Scale, you can see a little of what I mean. Mike's podcast is really popular and he has a huge fan base. And this is another reason why talking about online harassment is kind of tricky. No one wants to be on the radar of someone who's a harasser. Other members of the true crime podcast community have talked about being afraid to speak up because of the behavior they've seen from him.

Bridget Todd (02:31):

No one wants to wake up and find a flood of hateful comments directed at you on social media or a flood of one-star reviews on your podcast. But this is also how harassment festers, people don't speak up and they don't call it out for what it is. In doing research for this episode, an article about what Rabia is going through, described her as having a feud with Mike Boudet. A feud is a difference of opinion. A feud might be tense exchanges on social media. A feud is not when one person is concerned with their actual safety, that's harassment, and we need to talk about the way it impacts our work and our lives.

Rabia Chaudry (03:08):

I was in law school, um, when, when the, the best friend of my younger brother was arrested, Adnan Syed in 1999. And that has kind of gotten me, um, you know, it was just one of those things where I witnessed it up close and personal. I was there in his trial when he was convicted and I just witnessed the horror of, of all of it. And I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And I had no idea what the criminal justice is almost like until what happened with Adnan, and our community also was pretty naive. So that's what really, um, drew me in and kept me there all these years. He's still incarcerated as most people know. Um, but from his case, my, my work has stemmed out, um, into doing other wrongful conviction work for the last six, seven years, that's been the focus of my work.

Bridget Todd (03:55):

Yeah. You know, I read this great quote from your mom, she says, "Your time in this world is really limited, what are you gonna do with it?"

Rabia Chaudry (04:02):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (04:02):

And something about that... First of all, your mom sounds awesome (laughing).

Rabia Chaudry (04:07):

She's a force to be reckoned with, for sure.

Bridget Todd (04:09):

Something about that hope that really struck me was-

Rabia Chaudry (04:11):

Hmm.

Bridget Todd (04:12):

... this idea that you are doing very important work, you know, legitimately life and death work, you know, working with people who've been incarcerated, all of that, this is important stuff, and, you know, we only have so much time in a day and so much time on this world and, and so much energy that we, that we can expand. And so to see somebody like you going through harassment campaigns, do you ever feel that these, these kinds of campaigns are kind of me, deliberately meant to distract you from this important work that you actually have to do?

Rabia Chaudry (04:43):

Yeah, you know, I have been through, I mean, numerous, um, very intense, uh, kind of, uh, onslaughts, um, like in, in different, different times in my life for different reasons. So different groups who (laughing) want to attack me for different reasons. And, um, I think the first time I went through it, uh, really, really, it was really terrible. It was around the time serial came out actually.

Rabia Chaudry (05:05):

Um, but it wasn't so much related to serial, it was related to some of the interfaith work I did. And I spent, um... I learned my lesson because I spent about three months trying to respond to everything, not realizing that h- how trolling works and how harassment works. Um, then I, when I realized, first of all, I w, I felt I was sick. I was exhausted. I was physically, I had gotten really sick over that time, just from the spring of it.

Rabia Chaudry (05:30):

Um, then I, the realization hit me that, you know, what they want me to do is not to function. They want me to... And they're winning because I'm spending all my time. Like, you know, it's like that whack-a-mole game, right? Like trying to respond to this thing and you respond to this thing and they come at you with another thing. I'm like, "Oh, this is brilliant. They're keeping me wrapped up in this crazy, and I'm wasting my time and my health and my sanity, um, and not doing my work." And so now I always think about it like that. But like, if this is preventing me from doing my work, they're winning. Um, and so 100% it's a distraction, 100% what people who're harassing you online want to do is to make sure you cannot actually function.

Bridget Todd (06:09):

Yeah. All the women that I talked to who face, you know, intense harassment, that's something that they talk about. That's something that a lot of their situations have in common that, and at the, at one point they, you know, they are trying to respond to everything and really engaged. And then they realize they're spending all their time focusing on the harassment. So whatever the thing is, whether it was justice work like you or activist work or writing, they are spending more time trying to respond to the trolls, which they will never be able to satisfy-

Rabia Chaudry (06:37):

Right.

Bridget Todd (06:37):

... because sort of the trip of harassment, they're spending more time on that than they are sort of doing the thing that is their purpose. And I, I believe that really is one of the, the purposes of this kind of harassment it's to keep powerful women or "mouthy women" or women who, you know, uh, cou- could accomplish something to keep, it's to keep us from accomplishing whatever it is that we're meant to be doing on this earth.

Rabia Chaudry (07:01):

Yeah. There's that, there's that aspect of it, and there- there- there's the aspect of, they want you to like, they wanted to drag you down to their level. They- they're punching up in almost every case, they're punching up. They want your attention, they want relevance. So your attention gives them relevance. Otherwise they are irrelevant, essentially.

Bridget Todd (07:19):

That's so true. It's so true. And I, I know in your case, I can't help, but wonder if part of the reason why some of the folks who really have like an obsession with you and your work part of it is because you're very successful, you're very effective at what you do, and that makes them even more angry, you know? It i, it is kind of a- an attempt to drag you down to their level because you're so successful because they know you can be so effective.

Rabia Chaudry (07:45):

Yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, I, um, m- most recently in the last couple of years, the attacks have been coming from, um, this one particular podcaster and he's, he's actually an incredibly successful podcaster, which is what's shocking about, uh, this particular situation is like, "Dude, you..." He, he might be much more successful in the sense of, um, I mean, in, in one metric, which is like, I think he probably makes a lot more money than, uh, what me and my team make doing the work that we do, but the metric that's important for us is like the, the value of our work and the value of our work is, are we able to help exonerate the people whose cases were working on and, um, and basically just be able to pay, cover our costs that we can do it, so it doesn't cost anything to the defendant.

Rabia Chaudry (08:26):

Uh, because for, for most incarcerated people, they can't afford, uh, the appeals. They can't afford the re-investigation, we're able to cover those costs. So by that metric, my work is more, I would say much more meaningful. Um, maybe that's bothersome to s- so- so- some people, but I can't say that I'm the most successful podcaster in sense of like, we're not minting money over here (laughing), you know. We're not. We're not.

Bridget Todd (08:51):

Yeah, neither am I (laughing). Yeah, you know, sometimes I wish the kind of work that you're producing was valued in that same way. It can be a little bit frustrating.

Rabia Chaudry (08:57):

Sometimes I'm like, "Man, I could be doing like the kind of true crime podcasts that you can just knock out, like in an hour or so, and just get online and chat with somebody about some case." But our show is for every hour that we air, we're talking about hundreds of hours of prep of maybe two years lead time of invest... Two years of investigation before we can air a case.

Bridget Todd (09:17):

Wow.

Rabia Chaudry (09:17):

So it's very, very intensive. And, but at the end of the day, that's what, uh, that it's purposeful. And, and that's what I can do. That's what I do best. I don't do well what other people do, right? I can't do to a crime prom comedy, and I can't do other things, but this is what I do. And so, you know, as long as we're able to cover our costs, um, and provide us really as a service to the people who- whose cases we're looking at, we're going to continue to do it.

Bridget Todd (09:42):

Talking about this in terms of being in the podcast industry, you know, one of the people who is waging, uh, a, uh, targeted harassment campaign against you is a very popular podcaster Mike Boudet. And I think that it's hard for me to watch as a, like, as a podcaster it's hard for me to watch the podcast industry and ecosystem still support this.

Rabia Chaudry (10:04):

Hmm.

Bridget Todd (10:04):

And, you know, one of the things I saw on your Twitter that I think is so correct, is like, people need to understand that if you listened, if you, if like, when you listen to this podcast, this is what you're supporting. I think it can be really easy for listeners to say, "Oh, well, I'm just listening to the show, I don't know what's going on. You know, I don't, I'm not, I'm not "following whatever's happening."" But really it's been hard to see the silence, I would say from the podcast industry, in terms of watching someone essentially harass a colleague, you know, I, I think of all podcasters, that's kind of in the same, you know, the same club in a kind of way.

Rabia Chaudry (10:39):

Right.

Bridget Todd (10:39):

It's been really hard [crosstalk 00:10:41].

Rabia Chaudry (10:41):

Yeah. You know, the- they're, they're... And you know why though, because, um, and then, eh, you're right. I mean, and so we are, uh, podcasting is a community, podcast content creators we are our community, and then you have your genre. So the true crime community is even a s, uh, a smaller subset of that. And many of us are close... We see each other at different conferences and conventions.

Rabia Chaudry (10:59):

We su, we support each other's work. Uh, we're listeners. We listen to each other's shows. Um, so what I know, uh, what I know for sure, because, uh, we've, we've... People have confessed this to me privately, they have said it publicly, they have written about it, is that the same person who I think he's, I just think he's like a disturbed individual, um, many of them are afraid to really be public because when they have tried to push back publicly on [inaudible 00:11:25], he will come after them.

Rabia Chaudry (11:26):

And he, he does have a very big show and he has, um, a lot of followers. And so he can really crush the smaller shows by flooding them with one-star reviews, by harassing them into like leaving social media. Um, and so a lo... I've had people reach out and say, "I'm afraid to say anything, but I just want you to know that, you know, I'm supporting you, but I, this guy scares me. He's done this to me before." Like [inaudible 00:11:50] so, um, that's why... But there are some folks who have like in a very public way stepped up in the last couple of months and been like, "Enough is enough." Right? And, and they have really condemned his behavior. Uh, and I appreciate that, but not everybody can afford to, and I completely understand that.

Bridget Todd (12:06):

Yeah. That's so tough. And I think you, you just articulated one of the, the hallmarks of online harassment and abuse and co- coordinative harassment campaigns, is that it really has a silencing of that. Not just on the person that is targeted, but anyone who might want to, you know, stick up for that person, anyone who, you know, might want to challenge what's going on, it's such a big silence to get back. But I think that we don't talk enough about that as a speech issue, that the kind of people who, you know, are saying like, "Oh, gee, well, I don't wanna be too outspoken because I don't want what's happening to her to happen to me. I don't want it to be me next. I can't afford to have this kind of thing."

Bridget Todd (12:41):

Oh, so like they don't speak up or they just leave social media altogether, or they don't say that thing that they actually want to say. That is one of the hallmarks of online harassment campaigns that we just don't talk about. And truly we, with all of the, you know, rigmarole about free speech and cancel culture, we need to start taking that more seriously as a speech issue, because, you know, if, if an entire group of, you know, already marginalized content creators feel like they can't speak up and say what they want to say, because they're terrified of, of this person-

Rabia Chaudry (13:13):

Of one person (laughing).

Bridget Todd (13:13):

... you know coming... Of one person.

Rabia Chaudry (13:15):

Right.

Bridget Todd (13:15):

Like that's, that's, that is not good.

Rabia Chaudry (13:18):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (13:18):

And we need to be talking about like, perhaps we have, perhaps it's a problem with our, our kind of media and, and digital media landscape, but also it's a wider problem about ho- how much space one person is allowed to take up. How, how much, how much that one person is allowed to dictate this entire community.

Rabia Chaudry (13:35):

I mean, look, we, we saw this, um, in as big, as way as possible with the former guy, the former guy was (laughing) was the White House. Um, so yeah, one person can have a lot of power. They can be very destructive. One person can be a complete wrecking ball.

Bridget Todd (13:48):

Hmm.

Rabia Chaudry (13:48):

And that's what this particular person has. He's a wrecking ball, but what's really crazy about the whole thing is that, uh, he's mostly wrecking himself, right? Like in all of this, as he's scaring people and stuff, he's getting D platforms, getting dropped by sponsors, getting dropped by his, um, uh, his, um, his different companies. And, uh, and at the end of the day, you know... The rest of us are still gonna be invited and show up to, to different, um, spaces that, uh, you know, are relevant to our, our work, and while he's kind of been ostracized for a year.

Rabia Chaudry (14:18):

So it's not just, you know, I'm a target. Um, I think I'm a big target for him because I won't just take it and disappear, um, and it's frustrating to him. Uh, but, um, most people just kind of quietly like you know fade into the background. And so he stops attacking them after a while. Um, and you know, for me also, what I realized was like, what gives people like that fuel is, is just attention. And so they're just star for attention and I assume purpose and meaning in their life (laughing). And I don't have the time to give that to them 'cause I got too much shit going on in my life. You know, I have too much work that's actually has an impact on people's lives that I got to do. I don't got time for it.

Bridget Todd (15:01):

Let's take a quick break. And we're back. According to data from Amnesty International, women of color are disproportionately targeted for online harassment and abuse. And we see this playing out in all kinds of places. For instance, former president Donald Trump was known for lashing out at reporters of all stripes, but it's worst, both vitriolic comments are always reserved for journalists who also happened to be black women or women of color. Like White House correspondents, Yamiche Alcindor, April Ryan, and [inaudible 00:15:42] Young. And that his behavior toward them made them even bigger targets for abuse, precisely because they're women of color. Knowing this, it's not surprising that even though Mike has had issues with white male podcasters in the past, he isn't selling merchandise referencing their work on his website.

Bridget Todd (16:00):

And those men aren't being called out specifically by name in his podcast official Twitter bio, like Rabia is. Rabia is far from the only podcaster who has criticized him yet. Mike has not threatened to make a daily podcast blaming those men if he's ever kicked off social media, but he's threatened to do that to Rabia. I also think part of it is that you're a woman of color. You know, the data is very clear that-

Rabia Chaudry (16:23):

100%.

Bridget Todd (16:23):

... women of-

Rabia Chaudry (16:24):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (16:24):

... like women of color, we are disproportionately targeted. I think that, you know, we, yo- yo- you said earlier that he has gone after other podcasters white men, he's not making, you know, merchandise-

Rabia Chaudry (16:37):

[crosstalk 00:16:37].

Bridget Todd (16:36):

... based around their work.

Rabia Chaudry (16:38):

There are people, there are certain kinds of people we know who exactly who they are, that they can not stand a woman of color, uh, like having any kind of backbone. They want us to be subservient. They want us to, you, they want us to be in our place. They wanna put us in our place. Um, and yeah, uh, tha, I think that that's one of the biggest triggers for this guy and for others like him, is that, "Who the hell does she think she is? Why isn't she like, you know, getting in her place where she needs to be."

Rabia Chaudry (17:09):

Um, and, uh, a- a- and, you know, but what do you do? I mean, like we've seen this happen on a national stage. We've seen this happen with incredible black female correspondents and journalists, um, you know, uh, coming from a presidential administration. So we've see, seen this happen in so many different ways. Um, and I think that's really a big part of why I, I am, uh, a particular target for this person.

Bridget Todd (17:33):

I think that's so true. I think there's something about what a woman of color is outspoken, where people look at us and say, "Who does she think she is?"

Rabia Chaudry (17:41):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (17:42):

"Doesn't she know that she's supposed to just lie down and take it or immediately, you know, fall all over, self apologizing." The fact that you won't do that, I think it just, it, it triggers something very (laughing) ugly inside of a certain kind of person.

Rabia Chaudry (17:56):

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Bridget Todd (17:57):

When these kinds of harassment campaigns the kind of thing that you've gone through are happening, so many people at institutions that actually have power do nothing. And I think that that's another hallmark of this kind of harassment that we see-

Rabia Chaudry (18:08):

Yeah.

Bridget Todd (18:09):

... you know, uh, social, like... I was, you know, Twi, on Twitter, uh, this person's podcast has a verified account. You know, we know that de-platforming is a very effective way of curbing harassment and yet, you know, social media platforms seem to be doing nothing. You know, we see journalists describe what's happening to you as a quote feud as if you, as if you two are just sort of having some kind of a, a sparring match and that this is not a pretty intense and serious coordinated online harassment campaign against you. You know, what is it like to see so many institutions and people with power really do nothing to curb this when they could?

Rabia Chaudry (18:47):

I mean, it's not surprising. We've seen this so many times, especially with women, um, we've seen this in so many different, um, like, you know, different controversies have taken place with women getting harassed and, and, and making it public. And, you know, it's, uh, they gas light you. So it's like, if you, if I'm being attacked and harass, whether it's in my DMs, it's my emails, it's all coming from the same source, however, it's happening, if I call attention to it in order to get some kind of response from these platforms, um, then people say, "Well, why..." That then it becomes a feud.

Rabia Chaudry (19:19):

They frame it like it's a feud and it's not a feud. It's me calling attention to his behavior. Um, and if you don't say anything and you just take it, I mean, I guess that's kind of what they want. Just don't take [inaudible 00:19:29] and take it. But these platforms, they don't really do anything. What is effect, what has been more effective is as- asking people to just report, um, certain posts and tweets and stuff.

Rabia Chaudry (19:38):

Some get removed, some don't get removed. I mean, free speech first amendment is what it is. I guess we have the legal right to be as ugly as you want. I think I hit my, um, I kind of hit my limit when there were people, um, his followers and his mentions, and he's like kind of encouraging, he's encouraging people to go to like buy speaking events, to like find me in real life. Uh, and then he had people saying things like, "Hopefully she'll get murdered herself, hopefully a non [inaudible 00:20:09]."

Rabia Chaudry (20:09):

Then I was like, "This has gone, like, too far." And that's when I really... That's when I finally kind of posted, I said, "I have called on Twitter and Facebook to de platform him. This is the kind of stuff he was saying and encouraging. And they won't. And if something happens to me or my family, then they're, they, you know, didn't also need to be held responsible."

Bridget Todd (20:28):

Yeah. I mean, the kind of things that I've see, I've seen, you know, people... I'll see people be like, "Oh, well, she should just block him if she doesn't like what he has to say."

Rabia Chaudry (20:37):

He's blocked (laughing).

Bridget Todd (20:39):

[crosstalk 00:20:39]. Exactly, you know? And it's like getting people to understand that this is not just something that is happening, like "on Twitter" or "on the computer," I very genuinely sometimes worry for your safety in real life and everything that we know about online harassment, when it, even if it starts online, it doesn't stay online. And very often it's connected to real world violence. And so I, I am, I, when I see the kinds of things that he's encouraging his followers to do, I get very, like, concerned for your actual safety.

Rabia Chaudry (21:07):

Yeah. Yeah. I've had my moments of concern. I mean, I think, um, he, it just takes one unhinged person to think, "I got to do something about this." You know, especially because the way he particularly frames it is, I mean, the, it's such, I mean, like yo- you see, we've seen this technique unfold like online, um, like with the elections, right? So what Trump said was that these people are harming our elections. What this guy says is, "This woman is shutting down my podcast."

Rabia Chaudry (21:34):

I mean, he's got an incredibly successful podcast. I'm not shutting anything down. Um, he's continuing to produce, and I've gotten messages from peo, from people from men saying, um, "If you, if, if he ends up losing his podcasts because of you, I'm gonna come get you." Kind of stuff for a podcast, right? Like, so the way he's framing it is to basically target... Uh, is to direct people's, um, rage towards me in case like, you know, so they can like take out, take out revenge or something in case like he, you know, he stops making his show, which he's not gonna, but, um, and on top of which everything that he's lost in terms of sponsors and it's, it's been 100% him.

Bridget Todd (22:15):

More after a quick break. Let's get right back into it. In 2019 after Mike celebrated International Women's Day by posting a really gross meme about violence against women on social media, people on the podcast community spoke up and [inaudible 00:22:39] scales network eventually announced they were parting ways with the show. Mike vowed to keep the show running without the support of the network tweeting, "Anything that was ad supported is over now because of Aaron Mahnke from Lore and Rabia from Undisclosed who led this boy cut against me and my company, because they didn't like certain things I said." But that tweet pretty conveniently leaves out any responsibility for the consequences of his own actions.

Rabia Chaudry (23:05):

Like it's his own a- actions (laughing) that have caused it. And, uh, he won't take responsibility, uh, for his behavior. So, yeah, I mean, but there's only so much... You know, I did report, um, the... I did report the harassment to law enforcement, but you know, we also don't have very strong cyber-stalking laws and stuff in this country. There's only so much you can do to protect yourself.

Rabia Chaudry (23:25):

And other than that, it's kind of like, "Okay, try to keep my family safe, you know, got, got security cameras up, got alarm system, things like that." But I, what can I do if, you know, once COVID is lifted and I'm out, uh, in the public again? I, I always did a lot of traveling and speaking and, and, uh, and, and, um, I have a new book coming out next year and I'll be probably traveling for that. And it is what it is. I can't like hide, right?

Bridget Todd (23:49):

Yeah, and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier of, this is preventing you from living your life, from doing your work, from making your living, you know, especially as kind of public content creators, like that kind of thing, you do have to have a fair amount of like public stuff, whether it's appearances or our speaking engagements or conferences or panels or whatever to, to do that.

Bridget Todd (24:10):

And so the way that this is really like would really make it difficult for you to be able to do that without wondering in the back of your head, like is today the day that some, you know, some listener of his takes matters into his own hands, it's preventing you from being able to live life the way that you want to live your life. And I think that that's something that people really forget about this kind of harassment is that it's not just online, it's in real life as well.

Rabia Chaudry (24:37):

Oh, it is. I mean, 100%. I, um, but at the same time, I mean, like, you know, and I've had to process through this with my own lawyer and people who are close to me and, um, that I turn to for advice that, you know, it's actually not gonna happen. I'm not gonna change the way I live my life, um, other than just taking some general precautions, I'm gonna continue, gonna continue to do the work. I'm gonna continue to travel and speak. I mean, I, I speak to a lot of law schools and law firms and, um, and universities about this work a- and that's the kind of stuff that helps scale it up, you know? You get people to support the work, you get pe, students saying, "I wanna go to law school now." Um, and so, yeah, I'm gonna continue to do it at the, at, at the end of the day.

Rabia Chaudry (25:20):

Um, and i- it is what it is. I mean, like, there's just, you know, uh, like, I'm also a religious person. I'm a person of faith. And I, I firmly believe that when your time is written, it's written, it's, what it's supposed to come it's supposed to come (laughing). So, you know. Yeah, I mean like, there's this kind of no avoiding it, so what it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen, but, you know, but of course you don't want it to happen because of something as ridiculous and stupid as something like this.

Bridget Todd (25:45):

Yeah. Yeah, and I think something that you've said is so touching, knowing that you are going to continue to inspire so many, it's like you're building this little army of people who are inspired to follow in your footsteps and follow in your legacy and continue to create that kind of justice. You know, the impact that you will have on so many people is so big and your voice can be so big. And the idea that this one ass-hole could stop it (laughing), is... Obviously he couldn't, right? Like you're, like the impact that you can have, that you have is so much bigger than anything that this person could ever, you know, dream up try to stop it, I feel.

Rabia Chaudry (26:21):

Yeah, you know, eh, I kind of l- laugh about it sometimes, um, when he, he posts things about Adnan's case or other aspects of the work, and I'm like, "I'm an attorney. I've been doing this for like 20 odd years. I, my, I have a team of attorneys I work with, I work with the innocence project across the country on cases. And this completely unqualified, you know-"

Bridget Todd (26:42):

(Laughing).

Rabia Chaudry (26:43):

"... white guy, right?" They'll be like, "This completely qualified guy thinks that he has the same like skillset or, or even has the same l- like he's s, he's so entitled that he feels like his opinion is equal to my expertise? I mean, like really?" Um, and I think that probably drives him crazy too. I mean, like, as the fact that, um, I wanna be like, "Listen, go to law school-"

Bridget Todd (27:07):

(Laughing).

Rabia Chaudry (27:07):

"... spend about 10, 15 years doing innocence work, and then let's talk about this case." Like, you know, you have a completely uninformed opinion (laughing). You, you can't come close to like my, you know, the work that I do because you don't have the experience. I'm sure he's great at what he does. I can't do what he does. I will never do what he does. And he can't do what I do as simple as that. And so it's just like apples and oranges. And I think what it is is he thinks, "Oh, she's got a true crime podcast." My podcast is a means to an end. Um, the pod, the whole point of the podcast is... I could end the podcast tomorrow as long as I could find a way to financially support the work of, of helping people, um, get back in court, right? Who's been incarcerated for 20, 30 years. The podcast is just a way to do that. That's not the work. The work is the other work that I do outside of the recording studio.

Bridget Todd (27:53):

Yeah. That's something I love about your work is that it's not just so many folks like, and not to, not to crap on them, but the work begins and ends in the podcast studio and you are out there making, like doing the actual work-

Rabia Chaudry (28:05):

Yeah, yeah.

Bridget Todd (28:05):

... making the actual difference. And [crosstalk 00:28:08]-

Rabia Chaudry (28:07):

And I love those too, I listen to them all the time. I love, I love th- those kinds of sho, I love all kinds of shows. I mean, that's, you know, I love any investigative stuff, but this is what I do. And so, uh, you know, what I, what I think is kind of interesting is like, um, he's he's calling on us followers and other people who attack me to, to try and stop like, I wanna be like, "You really wanna s, you really wanna prevent a person from doing the kind of work I'm doing? Like that in it, in itself is like almost evil (laughing)."

Bridget Todd (28:35):

Hmm.

Rabia Chaudry (28:36):

It's like if I was handing out water bottles at the border and somebody is like, "Nope, I'm gonna shoot them all out of your hand." Like you wanna prevent me from doing like work that's gonna change people's lives? Like [crosstalk 00:28:46]-

Bridget Todd (28:46):

Yes.

Rabia Chaudry (28:46):

... it's really crappy.

Bridget Todd (28:48):

Right. And that could... Yeah, you're doing this i, this important justice work. And I think that all the people who see what's happening, who might otherwise be inspired to, to follow in your footsteps and do this kind of work, how many of them are gonna see this and be like, "Oh, well, I don't wanna do that." You know, it's like, you're preventing the, the spread of justice in the world by, by, you know, behaving in this way.

Rabia Chaudry (29:09):

But, you know, look, uh, I, he could only, he and others could only harass me if I allow myself to like feel harassed in some extent. Um, and i- it was only in the time when I felt like this is getting kind of dangerous, some of the rhetoric is getting dangerous, that I really felt stress over it. Um, but then I, I was like, my due diligence is that I've told my attorney, I've notified the platforms, I've put everybody else on notice, anybody who follows me knows now, right?

Rabia Chaudry (29:36):

So others are hundreds of, if not thousands of people are watching him, um, watching and documenting everything... 'Cause he had, does have a history of like posting things and deleting them as if things disappear from the internet. Um, and so I've done my due diligence and that's-

Bridget Todd (29:50):

(Laughing).

Rabia Chaudry (29:50):

... all I can do. And now I have to get back to my life. I also have kids, I've got a husband, I've got cats, I've got elderly parents. I have a garden. I had things to take care of (laughing). I don't have time for this.

Bridget Todd (30:02):

Absolutely. I mean, that's a great question. Ho- how do you take care of yourself? How do you make sure that, you know, you're, the, the things that matter in your life are nurtured and protected during all of this?

Rabia Chaudry (30:12):

I mean, look, when you're a working mom, I can't be like, "Hey kids, I'm having a bad day, you're just gonna have to feed yourselves and (laughing), you know, drive yourself to school." Um, there are things that are non-negotiable that you have to take care of every single day and in a way, just having that there, like, um, it's a good distraction from like this meaningless stuff that's happening online, uh, in many instances.

Rabia Chaudry (30:34):

So I, I feel taken... I feel like I ha, I'm taking care of myself when I get my work done. When I, you know, I write 1500 words a day. When I hit my 1500 words a day, uh, and I've made sure that, you know, my family's got food for today or I, I know we're getting takeout or I've made the plans, um, and my plants aren't dying, and my parents are... You know, as long as I'm checking the boxes of the things that I need to do for the people who are important to me, then that's taking care of myself as well. That is how I take care of myself.

Bridget Todd (31:05):

That's so important. So how can folks who might be out there listening either support you during this time or support the criminal justice work that you're involved in now?

Rabia Chaudry (31:13):

Um, well, you know, I, I just think it's important that look, we do have free speech in this country, but that means that we allow hate speech. I mean, the, the first amendment is actually created to protect the worst kind of speech possible. It's not created to protect the speech everybody loves, right? So, but we also have to be able to identify and call out hate speech.

Rabia Chaudry (31:33):

So what I would say, just like to, to help create a safer space, um, in any kind of public discourse in the media and social media, uh, is to call out hate speech. So this is hate speech. What you're doing and saying is hate speech, um, report hate speech, you know, and then let the platforms decide what they're gonna do with it. That's one way to make a more safer space for all of us online and even in real life.

Rabia Chaudry (31:55):

Um, but in order to support the justice work, I think, you know, the cases that we do at Undisclosed, we've covered about 25 cases from different parts of the country. Just listening to the cases, reaching out to the defendants, you can find a lot of their information online, writing to them, [inaudible 00:32:12] out to your local... I mean, my work is pretty focused, um, on innocence work. Uh, but criminal justice reform is much broader, nee, is needed in a much more broader way.

Rabia Chaudry (32:24):

But certainly you can reach out to your local innocence chapters to ask how you can support them. But believe me, there's a lot of incarcerated people behind bars who have not had visitors in years, who have nobody to write them, who have nobody to call. So in that way, Adnan is incredibly blessed. I mean, he's never not had family support and friends and, and people to visit him and love him, but there are so many people who have nobody. And so just finding organizations that can connect you to those kinds of people, writing letters once or twice a month, uh, you can change somebody's life like that.

Bridget Todd (32:53):

Can you tell us a little bit about the upcoming book?

Rabia Chaudry (32:56):

Oh yeah. It's a complete departure from any of the work that I am known for (laughing). It's called Fatty Fatty Boom Boom. And it's, a, a memoir. Fatty Fatty Boom Boom was one of my many childhood nicknames, 'cause I've always struggled with weight issues. Um, so the memoir's about food fat and family, and I think it'll resonate with a lot of people, a lot of people who've spent their lives struggling with, um, who love food and struggle with weight and have to deal with family (laughing).

Rabia Chaudry (33:24):

I love food, man. What can I do? I mean, um, yeah, so, and my family loves food and they wanna feed me, but also they want me to lose weight. It's like never kind of works out. Um, so, but it was a f, it was, uh, it was a fun write. It was fun to write it 'cause it was very different than like some of the more serious stuff that I do.

Bridget Todd (33:41):

Our voices matter, and we shouldn't have to put up with a digital landscape that just allows for our voices to be drowned out by harassment. I know it can be hard to speak up, to keep joining the conversation, to keep using our voices. But that's exactly what harassers want, for us to just shut up and go away. And even as she's facing a flood of threats and harassment, Rabia hopes that other women, especially women of color, won't let this kind of thing stop them.

Rabia Chaudry (34:06):

The only message I would wanna leave with, um, especially to, um, women of color, to people who are marginalized in any way, um, in our society is not to let people push you out of spaces. Don't ever let it happen. Just don't let it happen. Stand your ground.

Bridget Todd (34:26):

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi, we'd love to hear from you at hello@[inaudible 00:34:39].com. Disinformed was brought to you by There are No Girls on the Internet. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbox Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. [Terry 00:34:48] Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael [Amato 00:34:51] is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.